Freethought & Rationalism Archive

llDayo · 09-17-2004, 06:15 AM

I'm in a debate about Evolution vs Creationism. The subject about the prophecies of the Bible has made its way into the conversation and I'm not sure how to answer them (I don't know a lot about the history of the Middle East). I was wondering if anyone knew how to answer these questions.

First of all, I'll let you know that he copied every question from THIS SITE without citing it. HERE'S THE DEBATE in question, in case you were wondering (I know, Nation States, I was bored

). Not citing his statements makes me angry to begin with but I'll call him out on it when I reply. Anyways, all 10 of those questions he posted and I was wondering how to answer them (or at least some material I could research it on myself).

Jack the Bodiless · 09-17-2004, 06:36 AM

The obvious counterpoint to this would be the SAB's False Prophecies, Broken Promises, and Misquotes in the Bible page. If the Bible got some things right and some wrong, then that's enough to destroy the notion that it's supernaturally accurate.

But the biggest problem is that many of the "prophecies" on the linked site have nothing to do with modern Israel: they relate to the re-emergence of the Kingdom of Israel after the Babylonian captivity, and have been taken out of context.

Prophecy 7 failed: Egypt ruled over other nations since this one was made.

Jack the Bodiless · 09-17-2004, 07:00 AM

Ignoring all the vague "the Jews will be numerous" entries, and the out-of-context references to the return from Babylonian exile, not many remain to be dealt with. Some are clearly bunk:

Quote:

Ezekiel predicted when Israel would be re-established
Bible passage: Ezekiel 4:3-6
Written: between 593-571 BC
Fulfilled: 1948
In Ezekiel 4:3-6, the prophet said the Jews, who had lost control of their homeland, would be punished for 430 years. This prophecy, according to Bible scholar Grant Jeffrey, pinpointed the 1948 rebirth of Israel. Here's a summary of Jeffrey's theory:

1. Ezekiel said the Jews were to be punished for 430 years because they had turned away from God. As part of the punishment, the Jews lost control of their homeland to Babylon. Many Jews were taken as captives to Babylon.

2. Babylon was later conquered by Cyrus in 539 BC. Cyrus allowed the Jews to leave Babylon and to return to their homeland. But, only a small number returned. The return had taken place sometime around 536 BC, about 70 years after Judah lost independence to Babylon.

3. Because most of the exiles chose to stay in pagan Babylon rather than return to the Holy Land, the remaining 360 years of their punishment was multiplied by 7. The reason is explained in Bible's book of Leviticus. (Leviticus 26:18, 26:21, 26:24 and 26:28). In Leviticus, it says that if the people did not repent while being punished, the punishment would be multiplied by 7. And, by staying in pagan Babylon, most exiles were refusing to repent.

4. So, if you take the remaining 360 years of punishment and multiply by 7, you get 2,520 years. But, Jeffrey says those years are based on an ancient 360-day lunar calendar. If those years are adjusted to the modern solar calendar, the result is 2,484 years.

5. And, there were exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948, which is the year that Israel regained independence.

It is meaningless to talk about "exactly 2,484 years from 536 BC to 1948" when 536 BC was chosen only to make this work: there was no other reason to specifically choose that year.

All prophecies that God would thereafter protect Israel failed: Israel was later annihilated as a nation and its people scattered for 2000 years.

Some of the dates are off too: such as the claim that Deuteronomy was written about 1400 BC (it is post-exilic, written maybe 700 years later). Daniel was written in 167 BC or thereabouts (after most of what the events it "prophesies"), not 530 BC. I think the dates for Isaiah are off, too.

There are also numerous entries such as:

Quote:

Bible passage: Nahum 3:15
Written: perhaps 614 BC
Fulfilled: 612 BC

...Perhaps 614 BC?

Yes, and perhaps 611 BC! It's easy to write a "prophecy" after the event, and there's a lot of wishful thinking involved in assuming it was written before.

There is no evidence that Jesus actually fulfilled the prophecies ascribed to him: it is a part of the story that he did.

Conclusion: I have yet to see a solid example of a "fulfilled Biblical prophecy", and there aren't any on that site. All are either out-of-context, too vague, were written after the event (or may have been), or lack evidence that they were actually fulfilled.

Clutch · 09-17-2004, 07:21 AM

More important point: Biblical prophecies have bupkes to do with evolution.

Suppose that 1 or 3 or 8 prophecies are sound, whatever that might amount to. So what? Then what's true is (among many other things) "Prophecies x, y, and z are sound, and speciation is explained by evolutionary processes."

llDayo · 09-17-2004, 07:53 AM

That's mostly what I was looking for, thanks guys! :notworthy :notworthy

I'm able to debate most things just from resources I've come across on this site and others but there's SO MUCH stuff out there that I can't possibly get through it all. Glad there are others out there ready to support fellow skeptics like myself!

09-17-2004, 06:15 AM	#1
llDayo Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 316	Biblical Prophecies I'm in a debate about Evolution vs Creationism. The subject about the prophecies of the Bible has made its way into the conversation and I'm not sure how to answer them (I don't know a lot about the history of the Middle East). I was wondering if anyone knew how to answer these questions. First of all, I'll let you know that he copied every question from THIS SITE without citing it. HERE'S THE DEBATE in question, in case you were wondering (I know, Nation States, I was bored ). Not citing his statements makes me angry to begin with but I'll call him out on it when I reply. Anyways, all 10 of those questions he posted and I was wondering how to answer them (or at least some material I could research it on myself).

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-17-2004, 06:36 AM	#2
Jack the Bodiless Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UK Posts: 5,815	The obvious counterpoint to this would be the SAB's False Prophecies, Broken Promises, and Misquotes in the Bible page. If the Bible got some things right and some wrong, then that's enough to destroy the notion that it's supernaturally accurate. But the biggest problem is that many of the "prophecies" on the linked site have nothing to do with modern Israel: they relate to the re-emergence of the Kingdom of Israel after the Babylonian captivity, and have been taken out of context. Prophecy 7 failed: Egypt ruled over other nations since this one was made.

09-17-2004, 07:21 AM	#4
Clutch Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Canada Posts: 3,751	More important point: Biblical prophecies have bupkes to do with evolution. Suppose that 1 or 3 or 8 prophecies are sound, whatever that might amount to. So what? Then what's true is (among many other things) "Prophecies x, y, and z are sound, and speciation is explained by evolutionary processes."

09-17-2004, 07:53 AM	#5
llDayo Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 316	That's mostly what I was looking for, thanks guys! :notworthy :notworthy I'm able to debate most things just from resources I've come across on this site and others but there's SO MUCH stuff out there that I can't possibly get through it all. Glad there are others out there ready to support fellow skeptics like myself!

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.