Freethought & Rationalism Archive

7thangel · 11-24-2003, 02:23 PM

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Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
And you know this how?

Yes, by the given understanding of the prophesies and gospel of Christ.

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So, does that mean the other "apostles" were wrong or not "god inspired?"

Read my answer to JEST2ASK.

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But Paul was not just the apostle to the gentiles. He also preached to Jews, however "hellenized." What's worse, however, is that Jesus was supposed to represent the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, so Paul should have preached primarily to the Jews first and foremost, yes?

As you can read in my response to JEST2ASK, Paul, as per the apostles agreement with James, did not really build a church among the gentiles, though was a great witness to the gentiles. And yes, he preached primarily to the Jews. Now, even after the resurrection of Christ, the apostles are not commanded to establish the kingdom of God; for as Jesus himself said that the kingdom of God will be taken away from the Jews and given to the gentiles, and note that the apostles are Jews. Thus Paul speaks of a day in the future where the gentiles, who are supposed to restore the kingdom, will believe his gospel. I mean believe as in �knowing the verity� of the gospel.

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Instead, Paul taught hatred for the Jews in general; claiming that "they" (and not any specific Jewish leaders) had murdered their own Messiah, a fact disproved by the synoptic gospels at least. In the synoptics, it is the Romans who murdered Jesus, allegedly (and incoherently) at the request of a crowd of Jewish people. Recall that Pilate did not acquiesce to any of the alleged claims of the Sanhedrin to crucify Jesus, but instead contravened their request and proclaimed (thrice) Jesus' complete and utter innocence.

The only possible fault (if you believe such a-historical nonsense) is with the fear Pilate allegedly felt from the anonymous crowd of Jewish people he was there to brutally repress.

So, a very good question would be to ask of Paul why he told the cult of Corinthians to hate Jews in general for the death of Jesus, when, at best, there was a very specific set of Jewish people who allegedly caused (indirectly) Jesus' crucifixion; the Jewish crowd who presumably most knew who Jesus was (and not the Sanhedrin, who had been thwarted by Pilate).

It is evidential that that not ALL of the Jews hated Christ, in fact, the apostles and disciples came to all the Jews in the cities to gather the remnants. But hence the promises of God were contingent to the �leaders,� to whom the blessings of God will come, when all the leadership failed to recognize Christ as their Messiah, God had also taken away from them(the whole nation) the promises. Note that the promises unto Abraham were given to his sons who would be �kings,� the leaders, not the whole Israel in general. So they are actually even is the subject of the falling away, the leaders are actually the ones representing Zion, the tribe of kings of Judah.

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So, at best (and, again, inexplicably) Paul was stating, in effect, that the Corinthians should hate the Jewish people of Jerusalem and not the leaders of those Jewish people, since their attempts resulted in Pilate declaring (thrice) that Jesus was innocent of all charges.

And since it was ultimately Pilate's decision to contradict his own declaration of innocence, Paul should have instructed his sheep to bleet against Pilate and the Roman guards who carried out Pilate's illogical and historically incongruous decision to murder an innocent man.

I wonder why it was he did not, considering that the Jewish people are god's chosen and Jesus was supposed to have been their savior and not any other people's, according to both Daniel and Isaiah; the two primary Jewish prophets that Jesus allegedly invoked to legitimize his own claim of Messiah-hood?[/b]

The book of Acts said, � The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy(God) hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.� It is God who had determined what to happen as expressed through the prophesies. The crucifixion of Christ was actually prophesied to happen, it actually is the fulfillment of the law of Moses regarding offering a lamb for the sins of the people. Jesus himself spoke of his faith regarding his suffering and death. And Christ himself, after one tried to prevent his arrest, said, �Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be? So, you see, Christ did not argue, nor shown miracles to abort his crucifixion. Do you see God�s predestination on Christ�s fate?

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Accept that this wasn't true. The apostles were not killed for believing that Jesus resurrected and there is ample evidence to suggest that most of them weren't even killed.

Don�t exactly know what you mean, but the apostles were persecuted because of their faith, thus includes their faith on the resurrection of Christ. I am glad you seem to believe the existence of Christ in the history.

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Have you actually investigated any of this, or are you just regurgitating what you were told was the case?

Let me ask you something. The OT prophets that Jesus allegedly invoked to legitimize his own Messiah-hood do not in any way prophesy his own existence or the events that were to happen during that existence, but the one thing they all agree upon is that the Jewish Messiah was to mark the fulfillment of the release of the Jewish people from oppression; god's chosen.

Does it make any sense to you at all that the Jewish God would promise Jewish freedom only to then contradict his own promise and instead save gentiles? The very ones who were prophesied to die at the hands of the Jewish Messiah (as Daniel prophesied)?

Read Daniel. I dare you.

You are misinformed of what the prophecies mean. You must note that the people to be freed are not the Jewish per se, but of those who are chosen, which will include the gentiles to come. Also, the freedom is not from the Romans but from sin. Because even if Christ free them from the Romans, if they still sin, their freedom becomes useless.

Now, the apostles are aware of the gentiles who will receive Christ, in fact, would become instrumental in building the ruins of the �Church.� Look what James said, note that there were no gentiles chosen yet, and the �falling away� did not happen yet; them(the apostles) being yet presently presiding over as the leaders of the Jewish church:

"Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world."

Now here are prophesies regarding the fall of the Jews and rise of gentiles:

KJV Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

KJV 2 Kings 23:27 And the Lord said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.(Note that the �house� refers to the church, the mount Zion, where the kingdom of God sits).

KJV Isaiah 65:8-15�for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.(to Israel)��. And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:(the gentiles)

KJV Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

KJV Isaiah 65:1 I Am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

KJV Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

KJV Isaiah 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

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No, they were not. Indeed, the very opposite was the case. All those who were not anointed Jews were to be destroyed in a flood by the Messiah, the Leader, according to Daniel. Isaiah speaks of gentiles, but not in any way as superior to god's chosen people, the Jews. The anointed Jewish people are the most holy people on Earth according to the Old Testament and as such are to reap the highest rewards first and foremost.

If Jesus was to be the fulfillment of OT prophesy, then it is unquestioned that the Jewish people are the most holy of all holy peoples on Earth and are to be saved long before any non-Jewish person.

Indeed, the fact that you are not Jewish means that you would have, most likely, been murdered by Jesus, had he actually been the Jewish Messiah prophesied by, at least, Daniel and, more than likely, Isaiah. You hold the wrong Sabbath day to be holy; you follow none of God's laws (including the sacrifice and his dietary/hygiene laws) and you worship a false prophet.

In God's eyes, you are to be killed as unworthy of His kingdom.

Read my preceding response. God had punished the Jews as written.

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That's because Paul is considered to be a charlatan by the real chosen people of God. And they would know far better than either Paul or Jesus, since they were the first to receive God's words. Only Jewish people--being God's chosen--can determine who their God has decided will be their Messiah, not you and not Paul.

According to the basis of your religion, you are nothing more than a blight on God's holy world.

Your are misinformed.

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Or Christians, for that matter. Again, according to the basis of your beliefs, you aren't even a significant after-thought in God's holy mind. Jesus proclaimed that the Old Testament was the only true testament to the One True God, which means that only the Old Testament is true and everything else is false, regardless of what Jesus claimed after that admission.

Thus, Jesus (as portrayed in the NT) is an abomination to God, which must have been true, since God killed him. A true messenger of God cannot die and never did. God, therefore must have considered Jesus to be a false prophet and punished him accordingly.

Again, just read the Old Testament. At not point do any of the OT prophets state that the Jewish Messiah (a misnomer, since there were many Jewish "messiahs" and not just one) does not die and could not die, since they are nothing more than messengers from God. They didn't have earthly bodies, so the fact that Jesus did proves he was a fraud.

You follow a false prophet and therefore will be destroyed by your God. This fact is incontrivertable, according to the only authority on God that exists; the Torah.

Right?

Wrong. You are much misinformed.

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That's right. Only God can show mercy. And God will only show mercy to God's "chosen," and they must be the anointed of the chosen. Period. The Old Testament proves that beyond any doubt or question you may have to contradict it.

You are therefore condemned to death, unless you renounce your beliefs and become a Jew and are, in turn, anointed as the holiest of holy Jews, as prophesied in Daniel.

Believing in Jesus as your god/messiah is, therefore, a death warrant. It is unquestionably incorrect to believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by the Old Testament prophets, which means that you are targeted as an enemy of God.

You'd best convert immediately to Judaism and pray nonstop to be considered an anointed among the "chosen," yes? God decreed it some three thousand years before any false prophets like Paul or Jesus tried, pathetically, to claim anything other, so you've got a task ahead of you.

Renounce your false beliefs or suffer God's ultimate wrath. You have no choice in this matter. It was predetermined that you will suffer God's wrath by being a non-Jewish follower, just as Paul and Jesus was effortlessly destroyed by God's wrath some two thousand years ago.

After all, as you've just affirmed, only God's mercy can grant salvation and since Jesus was murdered, he must have been a false prophet and in no way a messenger from God, since messengers from God cannot be killed.

I defy you to find a single instance in the Old Testament (the only true word of God) where a messenger of God was killed, much less a Messiah.

Indeed, according to the OT, the fact that Jesus was killed proves conclusively that he could not have been a messenger of God, since no messenger of God would be born into sin as all those born into flesh are. The very act of being born into flesh proves a sinful nature, yes?

After all, God, being the creator of all things, has absolutely no need whatsoever to "experience" what it means to have a body and couldn't possibly be born into flesh, since that would mean God sins. Flesh equals sin, so if God ever were to be born into flesh, he would instantly be a sinful creature. There is no way around that, even for God, since that was God's decree, right?

Flesh means sin. If God were birthed into flesh, then God is a sinful being according to his own law. Thus, it is impossible for God to have been born into flesh as well as completely unnecessary, since God created flesh and already knows what it means to be born into flesh.

Surely you're not going to blaspheme and claim that God does not know what it means to experience flesh or be born into sin through flesh, yes?

Only a heretic would claim that God does not know what flesh is and what sin means, yes?

No, again your are misinformed.

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So Paul is telling you that anything you think is right (and he thinks is right) is wrong.

More proof that God hates all that are not his own chosen people. Since you're not Jewish (and certainly not an anointed Jewish person), you can only be one of God's hated.

The very fact that you are quoting Paul proves this and means you are doomed to suffer God's wrath. God states that this is true and you must do nothing but submit to God's authority and therefore cease to ever quote a false prophet again.

You are wasting your knowledge and intelligence thinking I am not amused by your misunderstanding of the Bible.

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More words from a false prophet. You have forever condemned yourself to God's horrible wrath. Say nothing more, for you have already incurred the worst possible wrath from your One True God. You are not the chosen. You are the kindling for the fires of God.

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No flesh! No flesh should glory in His presence. Why? Because flesh is unholy and all those who are within flesh are unholy.

It's the only thing Paul actually got right. NO flesh shall glory in His presence, including Paul's and Jesus'. It is impossible for any being (including God's own holy being) to glory in his presence, so no flesh shall ever be considered holy. NONE.

I'm glad you saw the light and proved conclusively that any person in flesh claiming to be holy in any way or anyone else who claims that a man in flesh could be holy in any way is not just wrong, but condemned by God's wrath.

Should any being in flesh ever claim to be holy, you now know (even inadvertantly through a sinner like Paul, amen) that such a claimant can not under any circumstances be considered a holy being. No flesh should glory in his presence.

Finally, a definitive proof that Jesus was a fraud and those who claimed Jesus to be anything other than a fraud suffered God's immediate wrath.

This is why Jesus was killed; not as a sacrifice as other unholy flesh-bound charlatans claimed, but because no flesh shall glory in His presence!

Both Paul and Jesus were made of flesh, which means it is incontrivertably impossible that either of them could glory in His presence! Can I get an amen?

Partly you are right. And God will not have mercy giving you fears if He wants you to make you know Him that He really exists. If the chosen suffered, you may also suffer without mercy.

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Isn't that the truth? Just look at how Jesus and Paul and the alleged disciples tried to create a better world through alleged knowledge and what happened to them? Why God killed them! Destroyed them and still men tried to spread false knowledge in order to create a "better" world!

But what was their "better" world? What did the false prophet who was immediately murdered by God try to say? Just look at the Sermon on the Mount! The false prophet that God destroyed tried to claim that suffering was a good thing and that those who were God's chosen should rejoice--yes, rejoice--in their suffering! That their suffering meant they were blessed by God! The very antithesis of what God specifically stated was true. This and the changes Jesus dared to make to God's laws is why God was angered and caused his immediate death, for those that in flesh cannot glory in His presence!

The false prophets are always destroyed by God. Only God's holy messengers can not be killed as Jesus was, proving without a doubt that Jesus could not possibly have been a messenger from God. Thank the same God that stories of Jesus' resurrection were not true as they could not have been true, for anyone who knows The One True God could not possibly believe that God was that stupid. Eternal life has nothing to do with flesh--for flesh is inherently and incontrivertably sinful by its very nature--and God's grace could never be reduced to a pathetic, flesh-based conduit; a "pure" sacrifice that by it's very flesh-based nature could never be pure enough for God by his own decree.

Indeed, Paul, in his infinite sinful nature could not have ever known that his words would prove that God condemened all those who would follow him as a trap; like Job. A test that all who followed either Paul or Paul's sinful creation of a false Messiah would immediately fail.

How could they not? No messenger of God, let alone God himself, could ever debase themselves by becoming or appearing in actual flesh. It would immediately turn all that is holy into all that is unholy, with no possible redemption, since anything that is within flesh is unholy without possible acception. It is the very purpose of creating flesh to begin with, since, of course, God has no need of experiencing flesh, since that would mean becoming an evil being, something God is incapable of doing and has no need of doing.

God has given us a way to immediately determine false gods; those who appear before us and die before us in flesh. Amen.

Paul and Christ suffered in fulfillment of the prophecies. They are not false rather, they are the very evidences that the Scriptures are true.

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Including, therefore, evil. Amen.

Remember Ananias and Saphira? God will surely do whatever He wants. If you think I am joking, read carefully my defense they were written.

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Indeed, so everything man does in flesh is entirely God's fault. Only God can be blamed and as such, only God is to punish himself for all transgressions against God's own will.

God therefore always punishes himself for all eternity and lowly beings such as we who are in flesh are never to be blamed or punished for anything ever. For that is the will of God.

If you understand, at least, that I am not joking, and honestly stating what I believe, at least you should examine it further of the things I am informing you.

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Indeed. Therefore, nothing we flesh creatures ever do will result in any kind of punishment at all, for if that were the case, then God is unjust and hypocritical, which is impossible. Thus and again are we forever without blame for anything we ever do. Only God, being the creator of all things, is forever to blame and this is why God always only punishes himself and all flesh-based beings can forever do whatever we want to do, since that is what God made us do at all times.

Rape, murder, incest, war; all God's fault completely and incontrivertably. We are but innocent pawns.

Christ said, �And he said unto them, Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed? and not to be set on a candlestick? For there is nothing hid, which shall not be manifested; neither was any thing kept secret, but that it should come abroad.

God had kept his secret in the old days and only revealed it unto the apostles and prophets. Now that you also hear it. What is it that you are angry of? You do not want to be in the reality? Can you escape? Perhaps in the end, such a person wise in the flesh, like you, will end up stupid anyway?

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And even then, it matters not, for no matter what we do we are never to blame and God is always at fault. Amen.

Yes, but if Christ and the apostles suffered for His own glory, do you think He would be lonely to make you like Ananias and Sapphira?

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Accept that, this cannot be, since salvation is impossible through any being in flesh, even if that being is God, since God cannot be in flesh at any point, ever, so if anyone were to claim that God was in flesh, we should wantonly kill that individual and be instantly forgiven our actions, since our actions were created and mandated by God. No flesh being can ever do anything wrong at all, since we always do wrong, no matter what, due to our flesh. Flesh causes unholiness and God created flesh, so it is always and forever God's fault for everything that ever happens. Amen.

BTW, I believe of the Father as the only true God. Christ is the King of all kings in the promised kingdom of God. I missed to inform you from your latter post.

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Of course, because God knows everything is always his fault and we are never to blame at the same time that our flesh means we are always to blame, but never to blame. Blame is only upon us and on God, exclusively, through us, by God. For God is all and we are God, except our flesh, which is not God and cannot be God at the same time that it is the very essence of God, as he knows and blames himself for.

Being in flesh meant being sinful, it does not mean that you �have� flesh you have sin, or you are sin. It is a figurative word for being �self� focused.

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Exactly, because it means that we have no moral compunction for anything that we ever do, just pretend that we do. Only God is morally responsible for everything that we ever do. Amen.

God will give you the feeling of guilt and fear. Or he can make your heart as hard as of the Pharaoh in spite of seeing great miracles.

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As we are at the same point we aren't, because nothing we do and everything we do is sinful, since we're in flesh, but God takes away that sinful nature, because God created us to be sinful to begin with. Thus are we nothing and God is nothing and nothing ever happens to any of us, ever.

Amen.

Thus whom God had chosen will rule in the coming of kingdom. And people like you, will be given a choice to die, or live as our servants. Time will come, and very soon really, and you will know who among us is a fool.

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Nor, accordingly, do we actually exist as God does not actually exist, since nothing can possibly exist at all, ever. Amen.

The only thing that exists is punishment for existence, but since that's all God's fault, then only God punishes himself, so the only thing that actually exists is God's own punishment for his own stupidity. Thus, the universe is nothing more than God hating himself for his own stupidity.

Now that's a theology I can get around.

Well, you are not examining much what is really being laid in the Bible. And you were given a misrepresented theology. �Haply� if you might feel after Him, don�t think you have all the knowledge of the Scriptures.

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Considering what that means according to what you've presented, no thanks.

I'll choose flesh, since at least it makes immediate sense.

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Thanks for responding and giving your time. I hope to hear from you again, I might have missed some of your issues.

7thangel · 11-24-2003, 06:09 PM

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Originally posted by Yahzi
So the Bible lied? We did not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

You are directly contradicting the Bible. The Bible says we have knowledge of Good and Evil: and you are saying we do not.

You are directly contradicting the Bible.

Sorry, I am not getting what you mean of contradicting the Bible.

In any case, what I mean is that evil is only subjective. There is no evil in God because he cannot suffer evil. But in humans there is evil, some humans cease to exists, so humans suffer evil.

Yahzi · 11-24-2003, 08:30 PM

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Originally posted by 7thangel
Sorry, I am not getting what you mean of contradicting the Bible.

I mean, the Bible says one thing, and you say something else that contradicts it.

The Bible quite clearly explains that Man can understand morality, having eated of the Tree of Knowledge.

You assert that Man cannot understand morality.

Either you, or the Bible, is wrong.

Which is it?

7thangel · 11-24-2003, 09:57 PM

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Originally posted by Yahzi
I mean, the Bible says one thing, and you say something else that contradicts it.

The Bible quite clearly explains that Man can understand morality, having eated of the Tree of Knowledge.

You assert that Man cannot understand morality.

Either you, or the Bible, is wrong.

Which is it?

You always misunderstand me, Yahzi. Read my response to Jobar. See my explanation of man's image as a quickening spirit.

We are in the image of God. But that image is "CREATED" in us of God, making us mere cyborg in reality. Now the cyborg has actually no intelligence like the Deep Blue computer. Now if you do not know how to differentiate an artificial intellegence unto a real intelligence, then you will surely misunderstand me.

strobe · 11-24-2003, 11:59 PM

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Originally posted by 7thangel
Yes, by the given understanding of the prophesies and gospel of Christ.

Understanding the contents of the Bible is highly subjective. The fact that there are so many different Christian sects with widlely varying interpretations of the Bible relegates your assertment of authority to level of mere opinion. You do not have understanding. You have a belief that you understand. There is a huge difference.

May reason guide you

Koyaanisqatsi · 11-25-2003, 01:14 AM

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Originally posted by 7thangel : As you can read in my response to JEST2ASK, Paul, as per the apostles agreement with James, did not really build a church among the gentiles, though was a great witness to the gentiles. And yes, he preached primarily to the Jews.

And which "Jews" would that be? The same Jews he said (in Thessalonians, not Corinthians; my mistake, your lies):

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For you, brothers, became imitators of God's churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own countrymen the same things those churches suffered from the Jews, 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out.

Note the anonymous plural.

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They displease God and are hostile to all men 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

The wrath of god has come upon the Jews (plural and not specified by individual transgressor)?

Odd message for a disciple of the Jewish Messiah, don't you think?

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MORE: Now, even after the resurrection of Christ, the apostles are not commanded to establish the kingdom of God; for as Jesus himself said that the kingdom of God will be taken away from the Jews and given to the gentiles, and note that the apostles are Jews.

Note, instead, what Daniel says regarding the Messiah, the Leader (and here I'll switch to Young's Literal Translation to avoid any confusion over interpolation as I so often do) and what happens when that Messiah arrives on the scene (emphasis mine):

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Daniel 9:20___And while I am speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin, and the sin of my people Israel, and causing my supplication to fall before Jehovah my God, for the holy mount of my God,
21___yea, while I am speaking in prayer, then that one Gabriel, whom I had seen in vision at the commencement, being caused to fly swiftly, is coming unto me at the time of the evening present.
22___And he giveth understanding, and speaketh with me, and saith, `O Daniel, now I have come forth to cause thee to consider understanding wisely;
23___at the commencement of thy supplications hath the word come forth, and I have come to declare [it], for thou [art] greatly desired, and understand thou concerning the matter, and consider concerning the appearance.
24___`Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins, and to cover iniquity, and to bring in righteousness age-during, and to seal up vision and prophet, and to anoint the holy of holies.
25___And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.
26___And after the sixty and two weeks, cut off is Messiah, and the city and the holy place are not his, the Leader who hath come doth destroy the people; and its end [is] with a flood, and till the end [is] war, determined [are] desolations.
27___And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.'

So, according to Daniel, anyway, when the Messiah, the Leader comes his presence is marked by cessation of redemption through sacrifice and the death of all, excluding only the annointed Jews.

So you are wrong and Paul is wrong and Jesus was wrong (or, at least, the authors of Jesus' mythology).

Had Jesus actually been the Messiah of Daniel, his presence would have meant that everyone on the globe would be murdered; sacrifice was no longer an option for salvation; and only the annointed among the Jews would be spared.

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MORE: Thus Paul speaks of a day in the future where the gentiles, who are supposed to restore the kingdom, will believe his gospel. I mean believe as in �knowing the verity� of the gospel.

Irrelevant. Once Gabriel speaks to Daniel, a countdown of seventy weeks was to happen, at the end of which the Messiah, the Leader was to murder all non-Jews (and non-annointed Jews) with a flood.

End of your mythology. [A]t the commencement of thy supplications hath the word come forth. This did not happen in Jesus' time (or Daniel's, for that matter) so none of it was true.

You are therefore guilty of following a false prophet in your God's eyes.

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MORE: It is evidential that that not ALL of the Jews hated Christ

"Evidential" where? In the NT? The NT is not recognized as authoritative by the only chosen people of God.

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MORE: But hence the promises of God were contingent to the �leaders,� to whom the blessings of God will come, when all the leadership failed to recognize Christ as their Messiah, God had also taken away from them(the whole nation) the promises.

He wasn't "recognized" because he was a false prophet, according to all of the prophets of the OT and according to the only authority on the God of the Bible; the Jews.

Are you an annointed Jew according to Daniel? Then you are to be targeted for destruction by the Messiah, assuming that God lied to Daniel about the timing of the events that were to happen when the Messiah, the Leader came. End of mythology.

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MORE: Note that the promises unto Abraham were given to his sons who would be �kings,� the leaders, not the whole Israel in general. So they are actually even is the subject of the falling away, the leaders are actually the ones representing Zion, the tribe of kings of Judah.

Whom God told Gabriel to tell Daniel would happen within seventy weeks of his "vision" regarding the Messiah, the Leader. It did not happen in Daniel's time and it did not happen in Jesus' time, so both were frauds and you are, once again, wrong.

You are not an annointed Jew, so you therefore can not be saved (according to Daniel). End of mythology.

If you follow Jesus, then you are guilty of following a false prophet according to the only authority that exists on God, as Jesus allegedly himself affirmed. Only the Jewish God is the "One True God" according to Jesus, so the prophets are the only ones who determine (for man) who is saved, which, again, according to Daniel (at least) means, not you and by no means Jesus.

Had Daniel been an actual prophet inspired by God, then you can only conclude that the Messiah, the Leader, already came prior to Jesus and murdered every single human being on the planet (except for the annointed Jews) just after the Messiah's presence marked the end of sacrifice as a means for redemption. Mark that well. The Messiah's presense (not his "death) marked the end to the redemptive quality of sacrifice before said Messiah may have died (though there is no evidence at all of any messenger from god being in a body and that body dying).

Again, your God proves you are wrong and condemned to death for your beliefs.

Quote:

MORE: The book of Acts said, � The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

Which proves fraud, since the "kings of the Earth" had nothing at all to do with Jesus' death. Only Pilate (inexplicably) ordered his death, because he was afraid of the crowd he brutally controlled.

Once again you are wrong (and, if you truly believe, your God is right).

Quote:

MORE: For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy(God) hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.�

Care to find chapter and verse in Isaiah or Daniel or any of the OT prophets which lists Pilate or Herod by name?

Quote:

MORE: It is God who had determined what to happen as expressed through the prophesies.

And was not expressed through any of the prophesies, as I have just proved beyond any shadow of doubt with Daniel. You are, again, wrong.

Quote:

MORE: The crucifixion of Christ was actually prophesied to happen

No, it was not.

Quote:

MORE: it actually is the fulfillment of the law of Moses regarding offering a lamb for the sins of the people.

Equally wrong.

Quote:

MORE: Jesus himself spoke of his faith regarding his suffering and death. And Christ himself, after one tried to prevent his arrest, said, �Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels? But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled, that thus it must be?

Where in the OT do any of the prophets state that the Messiah, the Leader will be crucified? Don't bother. The answer is, nowhere.

Quote:

MORE: So, you see, Christ did not argue, nor shown miracles to abort his crucifixion. Do you see God�s predestination on Christ�s fate?

No, and neither does the OT. You are, again, wrong.

Quote:

ME: Accept that this wasn't true. The apostles were not killed for believing that Jesus resurrected and there is ample evidence to suggest that most of them weren't even killed.

YOU: Don�t exactly know what you mean, but the apostles were persecuted because of their faith, thus includes their faith on the resurrection of Christ.

False. There is no evidence at all that any apostles were persecuted because they believed that Jesus resurrected from the dead. There is ample evidence, however, that a handful (as Origen provides) were killed for being followers of Jesus, but no evidence that they were killed for believing that Jesus was any kind of god. Indeed, the evidence points more to Paul's persecution of factionalized followers than it does for any beliefs that Jesus was God or had resurrected from the dead.

Quote:

MORE: I am glad you seem to believe the existence of Christ in the history.

And I'm glad you're once again wrong, as I hold no belief in an annointed one ("christ"), other than what Daniel prophesied; which, again, were only the Jewish people to be saved from God's destruction through "his" Messiah.

You really need to read the Old Testament, since it is the only legitimate authority on what you're talking about.

Quote:

ME: Read Daniel. I dare you.

YOU: You are misinformed of what the prophecies mean.

False as I have proved to you by directly quoting Daniel.

Quote:

MORE: You must note that the people to be freed are not the Jewish per se,

False. I'll quote Daniel again so that you won't think it's me saying anything at all, buy your God commanding you what you have no choice in accepting:

Quote:

Daniel 9:24: Seventy weeks are determined for thy people, and for thy holy city, to shut up the transgression, and to seal up sins....

Daniel's people were Jews, not Gentiles. Or are you going to contradict Gabriel and your God now?

Quote:

MORE: Also, the freedom is not from the Romans but from sin.

False, again. It is astounding that you can be so consistently wrong about the basis of your own beliefs. According to God through Gabriel, neither Romans nor Gentiles have anything to do with the presence of the Messiah, accept that, if they existed at that time, they would have been murdered by the Messiah, the Leader.

Quote:

MORE: Look what James said

Why? James was not prophesied by the OT prophets and therefore is irrelevant. Only the OT is legitimate. Nothing you quote from the NT has any bearing, as the OT prophets prove (and your own false prophet attests).

Quote:

MORE: Now here are prophesies regarding the fall of the Jews and rise of gentiles:

Are any of them from the OT? If not, then all of them are necessarily false prophets.

Quote:

MORE: KJV Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

False prophecy.

Quote:

MORE: KJV 2 Kings 23:27 And the Lord said, I will remove Judah also out of my sight, as I have removed Israel, and will cast off this city Jerusalem which I have chosen, and the house of which I said, My name shall be there.(Note that the �house� refers to the church, the mount Zion, where the kingdom of God sits).

False prophecy.

Quote:

MORE: KJV Isaiah 65:8-15�for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all.(to Israel)��. And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name

the gentiles)

False interpolation. You are wrong according to God.

Isaiah speaks of many messengers from God (Isaiah 9. 10, 11, 40 and 42), none of which could have possibly been speaking of Jesus.

Quote:

MORE: KJV Malachi 1:11 For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the Lord of hosts.

False prophecy. Jesus could not be the one spoken of by Malachi, since, (a) no place offered up incense to Jesus and no pure offering could have been presented, since Daniel states the the Messiah, the Leader's presence puts an end to sacrifice prior to him then murdering all non-annointed Jews.

Quote:

MORE: KJV Isaiah 65:1 I Am sought of them that asked not for me; I am found of them that sought me not: I said, Behold me, behold me, unto a nation that was not called by my name.

False prophecy as your own beliefs demonstrate. One can not achieve salvation through Jesus without seeking for him and accepting his divinity.

Not to mention the parts you left off:

Quote:

NIV Isaiah 65:9 I will bring forth descendants from Jacob,
and from Judah those who will possess my mountains;
my chosen people will inherit them,
and there will my servants live.

And how can you leave out:

Quote:

Isaiah 65:17 "Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever in what I will create, for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem and take delight in my people; the sound of weeping and of crying will be heard in it no more.
20 "Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days, or an old man who does not live out his years; he who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere youth; he who fails to reach a hundred will be considered accursed.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them; they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them, or plant and others eat. For as the days of a tree, so will be the days of my people; my chosen ones will long enjoy the works of their hands.
23 They will not toil in vain or bear children doomed to misfortune; for they will be a people blessed by the LORD , they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer; while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD .

None of that happened in Jesus' time and none of it applied to Jesus.

You are, once again, categorically wrong.

Quote:

MORE: KJV Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not my people, Thou art my people; and they shall say, Thou art my God.

Here's what preceeds that:

Quote:

[b]Hosea 2:2 "Rebuke your mother, rebuke her, for she is not my wife, and I am not her husband. Let her remove the adulterous look from her face and the unfaithfulness from between her breasts.
3 Otherwise I will strip her naked and make her as bare as on the day she was born; I will make her like a desert, turn her into a parched land, and slay her with thirst.
4 I will not show my love to her children, because they are the children of adultery.

Care to explain how that has anything to do with Jesus?

Quote:

MORE: KJV Isaiah 55:5 Behold, thou shalt call a nation that thou knowest not, and nations that knew not thee shall run unto thee because of the Lord thy God, and for the Holy One of Israel; for he hath glorified thee.

Again you reveal your ignorance of God and God's holy word:

Quote:

Isaiah 55:3 Give ear and come to me; hear me, that your soul may live. I will make an everlasting covenant with you, my faithful love promised to David.
4 See, I have made him a witness to the peoples, a leader and commander of the peoples.
5 Surely you will summon nations you know not, and nations that do not know you will hasten to you, because of the LORD your God, the Holy One of Israel, for he has endowed you with splendor."
6 Seek the LORD while he may be found; call on him while he is near.
7 Let the wicked forsake his way and the evil man his thoughts. Let him turn to the LORD and he will have mercy on him, and to our God, for he will freely pardon.
8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways," declares the LORD .
9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.
10 As the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and do not return to it without watering the earth and making it bud and flourish, so that it yields seed for the sower and bread for the eater,
11 so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty, but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.
12 You will go out in joy and be led forth in peace; the mountains and hills will burst into song before you, and all the trees of the field will clap their hands.
13 Instead of the thornbush will grow the pine tree, and instead of briers the myrtle will grow. This will be for the LORD's renown, for an everlasting sign, which will not be destroyed."

Noticed any thornbushes growing as pine trees or myrtle growing instead of briers as an everlasting sign which will not be destroyed?

Now that I have conclusivly proved you are incontrivertably incorrect in regard to what you were brainwashed into believing were "prophecies," I'll rest a minute before addressing the rest of your fallacies.

You have been unquestionably proved wrong so far by the only words Jesus ever affirmed to be true, as well as some of the words the authors of the false prophet claimed to be examples (and are not) of the truth. I suspect the same will result later.

Yahzi · 11-25-2003, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by 7thangel
You always misunderstand me, Yahzi. Read my response to Jobar. See my explanation of man's image as a quickening spirit.

We are in the image of God. But that image is "CREATED" in us of God, making us mere cyborg in reality. Now the cyborg has actually no intelligence like the Deep Blue computer. Now if you do not know how to differentiate an artificial intellegence unto a real intelligence, then you will surely misunderstand me.

And you do? You know how to differentiate an AI from a real intelligence? Because there are a lot of very smart people that would like to know that answer.

In any case, you are still contradicting the Bible. The Bible quite clearly says that man ate of the Tree. Therefore, we have knowledge of Good and Evil. You keep saying we don't.

Who is correct, you or the Bible?

erimir · 11-25-2003, 06:04 PM

At any rate, the most important question is:

If our actions are predetermined, how is the existence of Hell at all justified? Is it good for God to create people he knows will go to hell? Why wouldn't he just make everyone so that they're good, and so that everyone will go to heaven?

Or do you not believe in Hell?

Or is it justified because "God did it, so it's good"?

I'm sorry, that amounts to "God is good because he does what he wants to." There's no reason to call that good (or evil, really). That's just God doing as he pleases, and it's not necessarily good or evil. Of course, then might wonder WHY God wants to do these things that he does.

pmurray · 11-25-2003, 06:19 PM

It is morally reprehensible to predstine people to eternal suffering.

7thangel · 11-26-2003, 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Koyaanisqatsi
And which "Jews" would that be? The same Jews he said (in Thessalonians, not Corinthians; my mistake, your lies):

Note the anonymous plural

I do not see any problem at all. Both words �us� and �they� refers to Jews; �us� is referring to the Jews that believed, and �they� refers to the Jews that did not believe. Paul is definitely not telling the Thessalonians to hate the Jewish people per se. In fact, the Thessalonians knew that the apostles and disciples were Jews. Did the apostles preached also to the Gentiles? Yes they did, I even spoke about Cornelius(if you read my response to JEST2ASK). But the apostle really preached unto the Jews first. Paul said, �It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.�

Quote:

The wrath of god has come upon the Jews (plural and not specified by individual transgressor)?

Odd message for a disciple of the Jewish Messiah, don't you think?

Indeed, the wrath of God came upon the Jews! And as I said, even the very Jews that believed, together with the apostles and disciples, were destined to fall away; 2 Kings 23:27 is an obvious prophecy of the fall. The apostles are aware of the fall. James, in Acts 13:16-17, quoted a prophecy regarding rebuilding of the tabernacle of David that is fallen. The prophecy was from Amos:

�Behold, the eyes of the Lord God are upon the sinful kingdom, and I will destroy it from off the face of the earth; saving that I will not utterly destroy the house of Jacob, saith the Lord. For, lo, I will command, and I will sift the house of Israel among all nations, like as corn is sifted in a sieve, yet shall not the least grain fall upon the earth. All the sinners of my people shall die by the sword, which say, The evil shall not overtake nor prevent us. In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old: That they may possess the remnant of Edom, and of all the heathen, which are called by my name, saith the Lord that doeth this.�

So God did not utterly destroy the Jews. And then God will rebuild the tabernacle(church) of David together with the gentiles. Note that when James was speaking of the rebuilding, the tabernacle of David, as represented by the apostles and disciples, had not fallen yet. And when the tabernacle of David had fallen, it is actually the gentiles who will rebuild the walls: �And the sons of strangers shall build up thy walls, and their kings shall minister unto thee: for in my wrath I smote thee, but in my favour have I had mercy on thee(Isaiah 60:10).� The gentiles being reckoned to build and minister unto the Jews are the gentiles whom Paul said that �will believe(Acts 28:28);� it is the gentiles in the future who will understand the very meaning of Paul�s gospel of Christ, as Paul was saying in Romans 2:16. During the time of the apostles and disciples, they are the one�s ministering unto the gentiles, not the gentiles ministering unto them. Neither are the gentiles building the tabernacle of David during those times.

So, do you now see the prophecies regarding the gentiles being called in the kingdom of God?

Quote:

Note, instead, what Daniel says regarding the Messiah, the Leader (and here I'll switch to Young's Literal Translation to avoid any confusion over interpolation as I so often do) and what happens when that Messiah arrives on the scene (emphasis mine):
------------Daniel 9:20-27---------
So, according to Daniel, anyway, when the Messiah, the Leader comes his presence is marked by cessation of redemption through sacrifice and the death of all, excluding only the annointed Jews.

So you are wrong and Paul is wrong and Jesus was wrong (or, at least, the authors of Jesus' mythology).

Had Jesus actually been the Messiah of Daniel, his presence would have meant that everyone on the globe would be murdered; sacrifice was no longer an option for salvation; and only the annointed among the Jews would be spared.

Verse 24 speaks of Christ fulfillment of saving us from the curse of the law. By which his death is the fulfillment of the law of offering for the sins of the people. So when Christ said, It is finished, he meant of the fulfillment of the law regarding the lamb offered for the sins of the people; the end of the law of Moses in our sanctification through sacrifices, or works. Our sins are washed away through the death of Christ. Of course, only the sins of the believers, both Jews and gentiles. In short, we are saved through strict predestination.

Verse 26 speaks clearly what will happen unto the Christ and the Jews. Didn�t Vespasian(the leader/prince that came) destroyed even the sanctuary? Wasn�t 2 Kings 23:27 clearly fulfilled? You must have misunderstood the leader/prince as the Messiah.

Verse 27 was fulfilled when the apostles and disciples meet and agreed to end the law of Moses. Read Acts 15:5-11.

Well, things are clear enough, I guess.

Quote:

Irrelevant. Once Gabriel speaks to Daniel, a countdown of seventy weeks was to happen, at the end of which the Messiah, the Leader was to murder all non-Jews (and non-annointed Jews) with a flood.

End of your mythology. [A]t the commencement of thy supplications hath the word come forth. This did not happen in Jesus' time (or Daniel's, for that matter) so none of it was true.

You are therefore guilty of following a false prophet in your God's eyes.

Rather, you are guilty of misunderstanding the Bible.

Quote:

�Evidential" where? In the NT? The NT is not recognized as authoritative by the only chosen people of God.

You�re misinformed and deceived.

Quote:

He wasn't "recognized" because he was a false prophet, according to all of the prophets of the OT and according to the only authority on the God of the Bible; the Jews.

Are you an annointed Jew according to Daniel? Then you are to be targeted for destruction by the Messiah, assuming that God lied to Daniel about the timing of the events that were to happen when the Messiah, the Leader came. End of mythology.

I am sorry but the Messiah came and the Jews suffered apostasy.

Quote:

Whom God told Gabriel to tell Daniel would happen within seventy weeks of his "vision" regarding the Messiah, the Leader. It did not happen in Daniel's time and it did not happen in Jesus' time, so both were frauds and you are, once again, wrong.

You are not an annointed Jew, so you therefore can not be saved (according to Daniel). End of mythology.

It is a ridiculous idea that Christ will destroy the sanctuary. But at some point, he is guilty of letting it happen so that the prophecies will be fulfilled. Well�It was actually God�s will that the Roman�s came and destroyed Jerusalem.

Quote:

If you follow Jesus, then you are guilty of following a false prophet according to the only authority that exists on God, as Jesus allegedly himself affirmed. Only the Jewish God is the "One True God" according to Jesus, so the prophets are the only ones who determine (for man) who is saved, which, again, according to Daniel (at least) means, not you and by no means Jesus.

Had Daniel been an actual prophet inspired by God, then you can only conclude that the Messiah, the Leader, already came prior to Jesus and murdered every single human being on the planet (except for the annointed Jews) just after the Messiah's presence marked the end of sacrifice as a means for redemption. Mark that well. The Messiah's presense (not his "death) marked the end to the redemptive quality of sacrifice before said Messiah may have died (though there is no evidence at all of any messenger from god being in a body and that body dying).

Again, your God proves you are wrong and condemned to death for your beliefs.

Don�t you notice how coherent I am regarding prophesies?

Quote:

Which proves fraud, since the "kings of the Earth" had nothing at all to do with Jesus' death. Only Pilate (inexplicably) ordered his death, because he was afraid of the crowd he brutally controlled.

Once again you are wrong (and, if you truly believe, your God is right).

From the time of Herod, the kings(rulers of the Israel) are aware of the Israelite�s hope of the Messiah at that certain time because of their understanding of the writing of Daniel about seventy weeks. In fact, there were a lot who professed to be Christ. The Jews were really convinced of their victory. Unfortunately, they misunderstood the other prophecies of the Scriptures. The Messiah indeed came, and they did not know that it will come to render them judgment. Their ignorance is not really a bliss.

Quote:

Care to find chapter and verse in Isaiah or Daniel or any of the OT prophets which lists Pilate or Herod by name?

What�s next, �care to find Koy is a Devil in the NT?�

Quote:

And was not expressed through any of the prophesies, as I have just proved beyond any shadow of doubt with Daniel. You are, again, wrong.

Only in your world, I guess.

Quote:

No, it was not.

Equally wrong.

Where in the OT do any of the prophets state that the Messiah, the Leader will be crucified? Don't bother. The answer is, nowhere.

No, and neither does the OT. You are, again, wrong.

Well, they pierced his hands and feet, and if they call it crucifixion in those days, so be it. Psalms 22:16

Quote:

False. There is no evidence at all that any apostles were persecuted because they believed that Jesus resurrected from the dead. There is ample evidence, however, that a handful (as Origen provides) were killed for being followers of Jesus, but no evidence that they were killed for believing that Jesus was any kind of god. Indeed, the evidence points more to Paul's persecution of factionalized followers than it does for any beliefs that Jesus was God or had resurrected from the dead.

Origen, being adherent of Christianity, and believe of the apostles as true, is probably ignorant of most of the facts regarding the history of the apostles.

Quote:

And I'm glad you're once again wrong, as I hold no belief in an annointed one ("christ"), other than what Daniel prophesied; which, again, were only the Jewish people to be saved from God's destruction through "his" Messiah.

You really need to read the Old Testament, since it is the only legitimate authority on what you're talking about.

You read Daniel and you did not know what you are talking about.

Quote:

False as I have proved to you by directly quoting Daniel.

False. I'll quote Daniel again so that you won't think it's me saying anything at all, buy your God commanding you what you have no choice in accepting:

Daniel's people were Jews, not Gentiles. Or are you going to contradict Gabriel and your God now?

False, again. It is astounding that you can be so consistently wrong about the basis of your own beliefs. According to God through Gabriel, neither Romans nor Gentiles have anything to do with the presence of the Messiah, accept that, if they existed at that time, they would have been murdered by the Messiah, the Leader.

Quote:

Why? James was not prophesied by the OT prophets and therefore is irrelevant. Only the OT is legitimate. Nothing you quote from the NT has any bearing, as the OT prophets prove (and your own false prophet attests).

So was Koy being an angel, right? What is next to be irrelevant, this conversation?

Quote:

Are any of them from the OT? If not, then all of them are necessarily false prophets.

False prophecy.

False prophecy.

How come? Because you have nothing to contradict them?

Quote:

False interpolation. You are wrong according to God.

Isaiah speaks of many messengers from God (Isaiah 9. 10, 11, 40 and 42), none of which could have possibly been speaking of Jesus.

Nope, I am talking about the gentiles who would be chosen too. In fact, it was only the time of the apostles when the gentiles became part of the chosen. When Peter meet Cornelius, he was questioned. But when Peter spoke to them about the gentiles coming to God, they come to know that the salvation is being sent to the gentiles.

Quote:

False prophecy. Jesus could not be the one spoken of by Malachi, since, (a) no place offered up incense to Jesus and no pure offering could have been presented, since Daniel states the the Messiah, the Leader's presence puts an end to sacrifice prior to him then murdering all non-annointed Jews.

You are right about the end of sacrifice. But the gentiles refers to gentiles in the future. The gentiles who I was saying that will hear the gospel through Paul�s.

Quote:

False prophecy as your own beliefs demonstrate. One can not achieve salvation through Jesus without seeking for him and accepting his divinity.

Says who? You? Are you kidding me?

Quote:

Not to mention the parts you left off:

No I did not. I note: � And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord God shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

Quote:

And how can you leave out:
---------Isaiah 65:17-25----------
None of that happened in Jesus' time and none of it applied to Jesus.

You are, once again, categorically wrong.

Figuratively, Zion is the dwelling place of God, the heaven, which is the tribe of Judah, the tabernacle of David, the government of the elect. And God fulfilled what he said in 2 Kings 23:27, destroying even the �house,� referring to the tribe of Judah, the government of the elect. So God will now turn to the gentiles and build a �New Jerusalem,� a new tabernacle, a new government of elect, the new heaven, the new dwelling place of God. I don�t think you really understand the new heaven and earth being prophesied. I do not think you are aware of �New Jerusalem.�

You have been misinformed.

Quote:

Here's what preceeds that:

Care to explain how that has anything to do with Jesus?

Again, the figurative speech for a woman, a mother, a sister, a mountain, a nation, is a church, or government of elect. Verses 2 and 3 refers to Israel church. Adultery has something to do with, being under the law(Romans 7:1-4). For God is saving us through election/predestination but they clinged to the law, and was therefore found adulterer. (Spare me the elaboration.) Verse 23 refers to the gentiles who will be chosen.

Quote:

Again you reveal your ignorance of God and God's holy word:

Noticed any thornbushes growing as pine trees or myrtle growing instead of briers as an everlasting sign which will not be destroyed?

Now that I have conclusivly proved you are incontrivertably incorrect in regard to what you were brainwashed into believing were "prophecies," I'll rest a minute before addressing the rest of your fallacies.

You have been unquestionably proved wrong so far by the only words Jesus ever affirmed to be true, as well as some of the words the authors of the false prophet claimed to be examples (and are not) of the truth. I suspect the same will result later. [

No, Jesus Christ was the son, to sit eternally in his kingdom, promised to David.

As regards to being too literal, I understand why you are not understanding the prophecies. And with regard to what verse 13 really mean, let me pray to God to teach me about it, I don�t really know what it mean.

Thanks again for the reply
..

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11-25-2003, 06:04 PM	#18
erimir Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: NC Posts: 1,854	At any rate, the most important question is: If our actions are predetermined, how is the existence of Hell at all justified? Is it good for God to create people he knows will go to hell? Why wouldn't he just make everyone so that they're good, and so that everyone will go to heaven? Or do you not believe in Hell? Or is it justified because "God did it, so it's good"? I'm sorry, that amounts to "God is good because he does what he wants to." There's no reason to call that good (or evil, really). That's just God doing as he pleases, and it's not necessarily good or evil. Of course, then might wonder WHY God wants to do these things that he does.

11-25-2003, 06:19 PM	#19
pmurray Regular Member Join Date: Jul 2000 Location: Canberra, ACT, Australia Posts: 288	It is morally reprehensible to predstine people to eternal suffering.

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