7thangel

. The PoE in defense of the Potter

I am posting this in defense to the Potter against both theist and atheists. I welcome theists to lay their criticisms, as I expect from atheists. (I will post this also on GRD for more feedback).

God will judge the secrets of men accroding to Paul's gospel, the gospel of strict predestination. As we can see, Paul was the only one who preached strict predestination, while the other apostles did not. And being the apostle to the gentiles, his gospel are really intended for the gentiles being prophesied to takeover the kingdom of God(actually the true church of God). And for that reason, the few remnant Jewish followers, including the apostles were predestined to death, as Paul himself said, “For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.” Thus, when the Jewish disciples and apostles were killed, came the falling away of christianism and the church, and begun the transition of the kingdom of God from the Jews unto the Gentiles. The falling away of the Jews as God’s kingdom were written by the prophets.

Unfortunately, as of now no one holds unto the gospel of Paul of strict predestination. Any christian theist defending the PoE having the thought that man is a moral being, or have “free will,” will surely be put to shame themselves by the clear indication that God had no respect of man’s free will or works. Paul clearly said, “So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth(work), but of God that sheweth mercy.” And this is shown clearly in God’s process of election. Paul said, “For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:” And in fact, God himself will “destroy the wisdom of the wise and come to nothing the understanding of the prudent.” And the simple reason is so “that no flesh should glory in his presence.” So the pride of men that through knowledge could they create a better world is a myth. Neither because we have the willingness to obey or have zeal of God could make us pleasing in the sight of God(Heb 12:17. Rom 10:1-3).

Now, we have to understand that God, being the creator of all things, visible and invisible, is also the creator even of our actions and thoughts. As Paul said, “For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:” We must understand that no creator can create a being that would have “independent will” from God. If man has done something that it is not influenced of God, whether it be willing or acting, would deny God to be creator of ALL THINGS. And if man can do something without God being responsible of it, then he has whereof something to glory. But that is not the case and of the reality of God being the creator of all things. So it is not proper that we demand from God to treat us as a creature having morality, because we truly are not. We, ourselves, kill animals, which have life, to satisfy our craving for delicious food. How much more of God who had given us all our being? Paul said, “in him we live, and move, and have our being.” Not only that, he also said, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” So, unless we avoid getting emotional like children, we would not be able to understand the gospel of predestination laid by Paul.

Strict predestination also makes us to understand the salvation of Christ through the cross; implying that election is according to God’s purpose in Christ. Also, that we are saved according to grace; that we are saved as God’s gift unto us, not a reward for any of our actions or zeal of submission.

As regards to God’s hiddenness, it is a factor so important on us being created in His image. God’s hiddenness is giving us the feeling of independence from God, though the truth is that all our being is accounted unto God. Having a feeling “as if” we have choices, as if we have our own identity, is the greatest experience we could have. And I should note that atheists and theist alike would like to feel as a creature free from God’s power and will. And God, instead of directly showing us of his power of being in control of all things, had dealt with us as if we have choices. Paul even said, “they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:” and then said, “For in him we live, and move, and have our being.” So how can indeed be “haply” we might feel after him, and find him, when it is God who make us live, move, and have our being? Of course, the conclusion is that in reality we are not free at all.

May God bless you all.

Jobar

7th:
Now, we have to understand that God, being the creator of all things, visible and invisible, is also the creator even of our actions and thoughts.

Right, no free will. We're clear on that.

What we are *not* clear on- what, in fact, *you* are not clear on- is how evil comes about, if we are not free to do evil. By your theology, and by Paul's, evil- all evil- is the work of none other than God.

Tell me, 7thangel, do you believe in souls? If so, then is the soul actually something completely *other* than God- that is, something which perhaps He created, but which He instantly set aside from Himself? (This is the way that theists who use free will to justify calling God benevolent, explain things.)

JEST2ASK

7th You do realize that basically all you are saying is Let Me Assert MY Opinion on the nature of reality.


I find it very interesting that you you appear to base your arguement on the "Self-proclaimed" apostle who not only differed in outlook from the "Church" founded and taught by Jesus directly during his recorded earthly ministry but whose claim to authority is only his own words ..... I seem to recall something about Peter ( in the biblical record) recieving a charge to include gentiles in his ministry and isn't there something about the congretaion of Rome being establish before Paul arrived (as a prisoner)?

But the most ironic thing to me is that you seem to think the existence and nature of your god is to be conceded as fact and all you have to do as quote from a text that is not held in awe as a source of wisdom or abosulte (historical or otherwise) truth.

I wanted to respond here before going to GRD to see what other's post (I know ego ... & impatience)...

as to God Bless .... May the Force Be With You .... Live Long and Prosper ....

Yahzi

Why do you suppose that is?

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So it is not proper that we demand from God to treat us as a creature having morality, because we truly are not.

So we are not moral agents because we are just puppets. But if we are puppets, then nothing matters. The Holocaust wasn't a moral tragedy, just a puppet show. Gosh, I hope somebody brought popcorn.

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We, ourselves, kill animals, which have life, to satisfy our craving for delicious food. How much more of God who had given us all our being?

Your analogy fails. We do not kill ourselves to eat of ourselves.

Maybe you should consider worshipping Cthulu. If you do, he'll eat you last. We all get eaten by the Dark Gods in the end, but the faithful get eaten last.

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Also, that we are saved according to grace; that we are saved as God’s gift unto us, not a reward for any of our actions or zeal of submission.

Then why in the fuck do you keep talking to us? Your words can at best change our actions: but you just said our actions don't matter. Nothing we do matters. So why should we even spend 1 second even thinking about God? IT DOESN'T MATTER. What is the point, if there is no point?

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Having a feeling “as if” we have choices, as if we have our own identity, is the greatest experience we could have. And I should note that atheists and theist alike would like to feel as a creature free from God’s power and will.

Your ignorance is breath-taking. Do you know what Buddhism is? Do you know what the goal of Buddhism is? No, obviously you do not.

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And God, instead of directly showing us of his power of being in control of all things, had dealt with us as if we have choices... Of course, the conclusion is that in reality we are not free at all.

So God lies to us.

If God lies to us about this, then perhaps he lies to us about other things. Perhaps it is all a lie.

Perhaps, when God gave you all this information, he was lying.

Perhaps God is lying to you.

How do you know that God is not lying to you? Because seriously, dude, the archangels are busting a gut over you. Even Job figured out God was fucking with him after a while, but you're just clueless.

Koyaanisqatsi

And you know this how?

So, does that mean the other "apostles" were wrong or not "god inspired?"

But Paul was not just the apostle to the gentiles. He also preached to Jews, however "hellenized." What's worse, however, is that Jesus was supposed to represent the fulfillment of Jewish prophecy, so Paul should have preached primarily to the Jews first and foremost, yes?

Instead, Paul taught hatred for the Jews in general; claiming that "they" (and not any specific Jewish leaders) had murdered their own Messiah, a fact disproved by the synoptic gospels at least. In the synoptics, it is the Romans who murdered Jesus, allegedly (and incoherently) at the request of a crowd of Jewish people. Recall that Pilate did not acquiesce to any of the alleged claims of the Sanhedrin to crucify Jesus, but instead contravened their request and proclaimed (thrice) Jesus' complete and utter innocence.

The only possible fault (if you believe such a-historical nonsense) is with the fear Pilate allegedly felt from the anonymous crowd of Jewish people he was there to brutally repress.

So, a very good question would be to ask of Paul why he told the cult of Corinthians to hate Jews in general for the death of Jesus, when, at best, there was a very specific set of Jewish people who allegedly caused (indirectly) Jesus' crucifixion; the Jewish crowd who presumably most knew who Jesus was (and not the Sanhedrin, who had been thwarted by Pilate).

So, at best (and, again, inexplicably) Paul was stating, in effect, that the Corinthians should hate the Jewish people of Jerusalem and not the leaders of those Jewish people, since their attempts resulted in Pilate delcaring (thrice) that Jesus was innocent of all charges.

And since it was ultimately Pilate's decision to contradict his own declaration of innocence, Paul should have instructed his sheep to bleet against Pilate and the Roman guards who carried out Pilate's illogical and historically incongruous decision to murder an innocent man.

I wonder why it was he did not, considering that the Jewish people are god's chosen and Jesus was supposed to have been their savior and not any other people's, according to both Daniel and Isaiah; the two primary Jewish prophets that Jesus allegedly invoked to legitimize his own claim of Messiah-hood?

Accept that this wasn't true. The apostles were not killed for believing that Jesus resurrected and there is ample evidence to suggest that most of them weren't even killed.

Have you actually investigated any of this, or are you just regurgitating what you were told was the case?

Let me ask you something. The OT prophets that Jesus allegedly invoked to legitimize his own Messiah-hood do not in any way prophesy his own existence or the events that were to happen during that existence, but the one thing they all agree upon is that the Jewish Messiah was to mark the fulfillment of the release of the Jewish people from oppression; god's chosen.

Does it make any sense to you at all that the Jewish God would promise Jewish freedom only to then contradict his own promise and instead save gentiles? The very ones who were prophesied to die at the hands of the Jewish Messiah (as Daniel prophesied)?

Read Daniel. I dare you.

No, they were not. Indeed, the very opposite was the case. All those who were not annointed Jews were to be destroyed in a flood by the Messiah, the Leader, according to Daniel. Isaiah speaks of gentiles, but not in any way as supperior to god's chosen people, the Jews. The annointed Jewish people are the most holy people on Earth according to the Old Testament and as such are to reap the highest rewards first and foremost.

If Jesus was to be the fulfillment of OT prophesy, then it is unquestioned that the Jewish people are the most holy of all holy peoples on Earth and are to be saved long before any non-Jewish person.

Indeed, the fact that you are not Jewish means that you would have, most likely, been murdered by Jesus, had he actually been the Jewish Messiah prophesied by, at least, Daniel and, more than likely, Isaiah. You hold the wrong Sabbath day to be holy; you follow none of God's laws (including the sacrifice and his dietary/hygiene laws) and you worship a false prophet.

In God's eyes, you are to be killed as unworthy of His kingdom.

That's because Paul is considered to be a charlatan by the real chosen people of God. And they would know far better than either Paul or Jesus, since they were the first to receive God's words. Only Jewish people--being God's chosen--can determine who their God has decided will be their Messiah, not you and not Paul.

According to the basis of your religion, you are nothing more than a blight on God's holy world.

Or Christians, for that matter. Again, according to the basis of your beliefs, you aren't even a significant after-thought in God's holy mind. Jesus proclaimed that the Old Testament was the only true testament to the One True God, which means that only the Old Testament is true and everything else is false, regardless of what Jesus claimed after that admition.

Thus, Jesus (as portrayed in the NT) is an abomination to God, which must have been true, since God killed him. A true messenger of God cannot die and never did. God, therefore must have considered Jesus to be a false prophet and punished him accordingly.

Again, just read the Old Testament. At not point do any of the OT prophets state that the Jewish Messiah (a misnomer, since there were many Jewish "messiahs" and not just one) does not die and could not die, since they are nothing more than messengers from God. They didn't have earthly bodies, so the fact that Jesus did proves he was a fraud.

You follow a false prophet and therefore will be destroyed by your God. This fact is incontrivertable, according to the only authority on God that exists; the Torah.

Right?

That's right. Only God can show mercy. And God will only show mercy to God's "chosen," and they must be the annointed of the chosen. Period. The Old Testament proves that beyond any doubt or question you may have to contradict it.

You are therefore condemned to death, unless you renounce your beliefs and become a Jew and are, in turn, annointed as the holiest of holy Jews, as prophesied in Daniel.

Believing in Jesus as your god/messiah is, therefore, a death warrant. It is unquestionably incorrect to believe that Jesus is the Messiah prophesied by the Old Testament prophets, which means that you are targeted as an enemy of God.

You'd best convert immediately to Judaism and pray nonstop to be considered an annointed among the "chosen," yes? God decreed it some three thousand years before any false prophets like Paul or Jesus tried, pathetically, to claim anything other, so you've got a task ahead of you.

Renounce your false beliefs or suffer God's ultimate wrath. You have no choice in this matter. It was predetermined that you will suffer God's wrath by being a non-Jewish follower, just as Paul and Jesus was effortlessly destroyed by God's wrath some two thousand years ago.

After all, as you've just affirmed, only God's mercy can grant salvation and since Jesus was murdered, he must have been a false prophet and in no way a messenger from God, since messengers from God cannot be killed.

I defy you to find a single instance in the Old Testament (the only true word of God) where a messenger of God was killed, much less a Messiah.

Indeed, according to the OT, the fact that Jesus was killed proves conclusively that he could not have been a messenger of God, since no messenger of God would be born into sin as all those born into flesh are. The very act of being born into flesh proves a sinful nature, yes?

After all, God, being the creator of all things, has absolutely no need whatsoever to "experience" what it means to have a body and couldn't possibly be born into flesh, since that would mean God sins. Flesh equals sin, so if God ever were to be born into flesh, he would instantly be a sinful creature. There is no way around that, even for God, since that was God's decree, right?

Flesh means sin. If God were birthed into flesh, then God is a sinful being according to his own law. Thus, it is impossible for God to have been born into flesh as well as completely unnecessary, since God created flesh and already knows what it means to be born into flesh.

Surely you're not going to blaspheme and claim that God does not know what it means to experience flesh or be born into sin through flesh, yes?

Only a heretic would claim that God does not know what flesh is and what sin means, yes?

So Paul is telling you that anything you think is right (and he thinks is right) is wrong.

More proof that God hates all that are not his own chosen people. Since you're not Jewish (and certainly not an annointed Jewish person), you can only be one of God's hated.

The very fact that you are quoting Paul proves this and means you are doomed to suffer God's wrath. God states that this is true and you must do nothing but submit to God's authority and therefore cease to ever quote a false prophet again.

More words from a false prophet. You have forever condemend yourself to God's horrible wrath. Say nothing more, for you have already incured the worst possible wrath from your One True God. You are not the chosen. You are the kindling for the fires of God.

No flesh! No flesh should glory in His presence. Why? Because flesh is unholy and all those who are within flesh are unholy.

It's the only thing Paul actually got right. NO flesh shall glory in His presence, including Paul's and Jesus'. It is impossible for any being (including God's own holy being) to glory in his presence, so no flesh shall ever be considered holy. NONE.

I'm glad you saw the light and proved conclusively that any person in flesh claiming to be holy in any way or anyone else who claims that a man in flesh could be holy in any way is not just wrong, but condemned by God's wrath.

Should any being in flesh ever claim to be holy, you now know (even inadvertantly through a sinner like Paul, amen) that such a claimant can not under any circumstances be considered a holy being. No flesh should glory in his presence.

Finally, a definitive proof that Jesus was a fraud and those who claimed Jesus to be anything other than a fraud suffered God's immediate wrath.

This is why Jesus was killed; not as a sacrifice as other unholy flesh-bound charlatans claimed, but because no flesh shall glory in His presence!

Both Paul and Jesus were made of flesh, which means it is incontrivertably impossible that either of them could glory in His presence! Can I get an amen?

Isn't that the truth? Just look at how Jesus and Paul and the alleged disciples tried to create a better world through alleged knowledge and what happened to them? Why God killed them! Destroyed them and still men tried to spread false knowledge in order to create a "better" world!

But what was their "better" world? What did the false prophet who was immediately murdered by God try to say? Just look at the Sermon on the Mount! The false prophet that God destroyed tried to claim that suffering was a good thing and that those who were God's chosen should rejoice--yes, rejoice--in their suffering! That their suffering meant they were blessed by God! The very antithesis of what God specifcally stated was true. This and the changes Jesus dared to make to God's laws is why God was angered and caused his immediate death, for those that in flesh cannot glory in His presence!

The false prophets are always destroyed by God. Only God's holy messengers can not be killed as Jesus was, proving without a doubt that Jesus could not possibly have been a messenger from God. Thank the same God that stories of Jesus' resurrection were not true as they could not have been true, for anyone who knows The One True God could not possibly believe that God was that stupid. Eternal life has nothing to do with flesh--for flesh is inherently and incontrivertably sinful by its very nature--and God's grace could never be reduced to a pathetic, flesh-based conduit; a "pure" sacrifice that by it's very flesh-based nature could never be pure enough for God by his own decree.

Indeed, Paul, in his infinite sinful nature could not have ever known that his words would prove that God condemened all those who would follow him as a trap; like Job. A test that all who followed either Paul or Paul's sinful creation of a false Messiah would immediately fail.

How could they not? No messenger of God, let alone God himself, could ever debase themselves by becoming or appearing in actual flesh. It would immediately turn all that is holy into all that is unholy, with no possible redemption, since anything that is within flesh is unholy without possible acception. It is the very purpose of creating flesh to begin with, since, of course, God has no need of experiencing flesh, since that would mean becoming an evil being, something God is incapable of doing and has no need of doing.

God has given us a way to immediately determine false gods; those who appear before us and die before us in flesh. Amen.

Including, therefore, evil. Amen.

Indeed, so everything man does in flesh is entirely God's fault. Only God can be blamed and as such, only God is to punish himself for all transgressions against God's own will.

God therefore always punishes himself for all eternity and lowly beings such as we who are in flesh are never to be blamed or punished for anything ever. For that is the will of God.

Indeed. Therefore, nothing we flesh creatures ever do will result in any kind of punishment at all, for if that were the case, then God is unjust and hypocritical, which is impossible. Thus and again are we forever without blame for anytying we ever do. Only God, being the creator of all things, is forever to blame and this is why God always only punishes himself and all flesh-based beings can forever do whatever we want to do, since that is what God made us do at all times.

Rape, murder, incest, war; all God's fault completely and incontrivertably. We are but innocent pawns.

And even then, it matters not, for no matter what we do we are never to blame and God is always at fault. Amen.

Accept that, this cannot be, since salvation is impossible through any being in flesh, even if that being is God, since God cannot be in flesh at any point, ever, so if anyone were to claim that God was in flesh, we should wantonly kill that individual and be instantly forgiven our actions, since our actions were created and mandated by God. No flesh being can ever do anything wrong at all, since we always do wrong, no matter what, due to our flesh. Flesh causes unholiness and God created flesh, so it is always and forever God's fault for everything that ever happens. Amen.

Of course, because God knows everything is always his fault and we are never to blame at the same time that our flesh means we are always to blame, but never to blame. Blame is only upon us and on God, exclusively, through us, by God. For God is all and we are God, except our flesh, which is not God and cannot be God at the same time that it is the very essence of God, as he knows and blames himself for.

Exactly, because it means that we have no moral compunction for anything that we ever do, just pretend that we do. Only God is morrally responsible for everything that we ever do. Amen.

As we are at the same point we aren't, because nothing we do and everything we do is sinful, since we're in flesh, but God takes away that sinful nature, because God created us to be sinful to begin with. Thus are we nothing and God is nothing and nothing ever happens to any of us, ever.

Amen.

Nor, accordingly, do we actually exist as God does not actually exist, since nothing can possibly exist at all, ever. Amen.

The only thing that exists is punishment for existence, but since that's all God's fault, then only God punishes himself, so the only thing that actually exists is God's own punishment for his own stupidity. Thus, the universe is nothing more than God hating himself for his own stupidity.

Now that's a theology I can get around.

Considering what that means according to what you've presented, no thanks.

I'll choose flesh, since at least it makes immediate sense.

Jobar

Damn, Koy! Just drop a nuke on the guy, why dontcha?

Matrioshka_Brain

Ignoring you infinitude of blind assertions, you have yet to explain how this really makes the "potter"/engeneer/divine hobbiest good.

The jist of you argument is that

A.) man is a soulles confabulation of chemicals -

Probibaly true, but contrary to the christian strory line. You say we aren't "made in its image"- or it's just a determistic catalystic confabulation of "supernatural" elements, and thus not omnipotent due to being deterministic in nature.


B.) This is just another example of a being doing whatever it wants to beings such as itself without any inhibitions or "morals". Thus, by any standards, it is not a moral being. Just a "might makes 'right'" thingy. But with some sadism thrown in.

G2G - school

-

7thangel

There is indeed no "we" doing evil in strict predestination. Evil is subjective to our nature as mere creation; for unto us to cease to exist is evil. So the vessels made to destruction is evil in our sight because we do not want to be vessels unto destruction. And yes, it is God himself who makes us vessels unto destruction. However God is not evil for doing the vessels unto destruction because in reality, he is the sole being with moral and free will.

The soul refers to image. Paul said:

And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The image of the living soul refers to our physicality of being. Thus, when a man dies, his soul dies with him. The soul is of nature coming from the physical body. Just imagine a "gay," that is a soul of a human being.

The image of the quickening spirit refers to our image of being like unto God having free will, or moral. The spirit return unto God because the spirit came from God. The spirit is of nature that comes from God. As we conceptualize what is a person like as a moral being, that is the spiritual image. Just think about this, are we born with moral? No, thus we are all born as "living soul," void at first of the spiritual image.

7thangel

If we deal with God we have to deal with reality, right? And man as mere creation of God make it incoherent for us realizing ourselves independent from the creator who made our very being.

Paul wrote, "In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ [/u]according to my gospel.[/u]" While Peter said, "God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe." But the apostles did not really build a church among the gentiles, rather they agreed with James saying, "my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." The apostles knew of the falling away of the church, the Jewish Church, and that God will set up a kingdom among the gentiles. Paul openly said that they are accounted to suffer and die. And as we can infer from the story of Ananias and Saphira, those who were called to preached were commanded to sell what they have; probably to ready themselves to be martyrs. And Ananias and Saphira seeming not to conform to the prophecy, by allocating money for themselves, died without mercy in front others, as witness that God will not have mercy to those who will disobey. As James said, the main focus of the apostles is the Jewish church with the knowledge that it will soon fall away according to the prophecies. And as we see, Paul's first concern while in Rome was to talk to the Jews.

Now, as Paul said, he is speaking of a day, something in the future, when the gentiles will know the judgment of God through Christ according to his gospel. The apostles preached also predestination according to our salvation through Christ's death on the cross, but it is Paul's explanation of the gospel that spell it quite clearly about strict predestination.

The apostles were actually being sent to the Jewish community, thus Peter was questioned of meeting Cornelius. But as James as what the apostles agreed, they did not build a church among the gentiles to give way to the prophecy of falling away.

The gospel is the only useful tool to understand the extent of God's power over man's being. During the time of the apostles, they used the prophecies to justify that God is working in the whole creation. In fact, the crucifixion of Christ is the center of all the Scriptures. And it is the Scripture that Jesus himself used to further the faith of the apostles. And I believe that only through demonstration would we know that God is totally in control of our being, through how God works in the whole creation specifically the history of the Church, or the holy people. God's prophesies are actually his own working. Of course, unless we understand a book, or any book for that matter, it surely is unbeneficial.

Thanks, I appreciate your response.

Yahzi

So the Bible lied? We did not eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil?

You are directly contradicting the Bible. The Bible says we have knowledge of Good and Evil: and you are saying we do not.

You are directly contradicting the Bible.