KrisK10

Hi folks,

This is my first post on your e-group. I was hoping someone might be able to help me out.

I’m trying to make sense of the claim in 1 Cor 15:5-7 that Jesus appeared to “the 12” and to “all the apostles”. I’m operating on the assumptions that 1] Jesus of Nazareth was a real person that sparked the beginnings of Christianity, 2] 1 Cor 15:5-7 is not a post-Pauline interpolation, and 3] 1 Cor 15:5-7 reflects a tradition that existed when “the 12” and “the apostles” were alive to hear this tradition. If anyone here can buy these assumptions, does anyone have a good explanation for how exactly the tradition arose and survived that “the 12” and “all the apostles” saw Jesus if in fact Jesus did not appear to the 12 or the apostles?

The best explanation I have been able to come with so far is along this line of thinking: After Peter had an appearance experience of some kind (either in a dream, or on the edge of sleep, or, very remotely, while wide awake), many others followed suit, seeing Jesus in dreams, on the edge of sleep, or simply sensing his presence. Of these people, those that had leadership qualities were selected to be part of the 12 and the apostles, and were identified as having seen Jesus in order to mark them as having the authority to teach. The emphasis was on ones veracity of belief in Jesus’ resurrection and the ability to preach/teach this belief to others, not on the exact details or veridity of the visionary experience. Authority was primary, the details of the vision was secondary, essentially “going under the radar” if you will. Everyone just accepted that Jesus appeared to all of these people.

Thanks for any help, suggestions, or thoughts that anyone can offer!

Kris

I’m not too interested in the appearance to the 500 mentioned in 1 Cor 15:5-7, since that seems pretty easily explainable as an urban legend or a mass ecstasy experience that was later inflated into an appearance experience. But the reference to “the 12” and “the apostles” would seem traceable at the time to specific identifiable people.

KrisK10

I should have added in my request for help: Does anyone have an example, ancient or modern, where a group of identifiable people who were still living at the time, were said to have seen a dead person?

Kris

Ben C Smith

You may find that many here do not share these assumptions. But I do, so off we go....

Personally, at the moment, I think it is more likely that groups already known as the 12 and as apostles did share some kind of experience (the phrase appeared to the 12 makes a bit more sense as indicating that the 12 already existed as such). The tradition that this appearance was only to 11 (or even 10) is later, and may reflect either (A) an invention (namely that Judas, one of the 12, betrayed Jesus) or (B) a misunderstanding (to wit, somebody named Judas really did betray Jesus, but he was not actually one of the 12; it was later assumed that he was).

This scenario is also possible, and implies that there was no such entity as the 12 during the lifetime of Jesus. There are some who hold this kind of position.

Ben.

Johnny Skeptic

I am not aware of any good reasons why Jesus would limit his appearances, or why he would make any appearances at all.

motorhead

What does this have to do with the OP?

Huon

At Fatima, Portugal, three children had a vision of the Holy Virgin. Same at Lourdes, France, la Salette, France, Medjugorje, Yugoslavia, etc... Not very rare.

Sarpedon

the best explanation is that it never happened, and it was just a story. The fact that the disciples are such poorly defined characters is because they don't really matter, they aren't real. They are just Jesus' entourage. This is why it doesn't matter if it was the 12, the 11, or the 10. If you look at the gospels, you will see that the disciples don't act like people. They act like stereotypes, if at all.

Toto

While I do not buy into your assumptions, this seems to be the crux of your question, and it seems to betray a lack of imagination if you think this sort of thing requires some elaborate explanation.

Have you investigated Elvis sightings? Have you googled <sightings of dead people>?

aa5874

Did the three children see the Holy Virgin before? How do you recognise someone you have never seen before? The Holy One must have had a photo ID or some means of identification, possibly a credit card and driver's licence.

KrisK10

Thanks for all the thoughtful replies!

Ben, it’s interesting that you bring up the topic of the number of disciples mentioned in 1 Cor 15:5. The fact that early tradition expresses first an appearance to Peter (Cephas), and then to “the 12”, would seem to favor an interpretation that the tradition intends that Jesus appeared to all 12 at the same time. That is, if the tradition intended individual experiences, it would seem more likely that after it expressed an appearance to Peter, it would have expressed an appearance “to the rest of the 12”, or “to the 11”. So although Paul doesn’t mention that the appearance was to the 12 at one time (like he says about the 500), would you agree that the 1 Cor 15 tradition may actually intend a group appearance experience to the 12? If so, what do you think that group experience actually was, and how do you think that grew into a tradition, while the 12 were still alive, which says that all 12 saw Jesus at the same time? I should say here that I’m very skeptical that simultaneous visual experiences of dead people ever happen. At most, multiple people seem to be able to talk themselves into seeing a light (for example the visual image of the sun spinning when thousands visited the Conyers, Georgia woman who claimed private visions of the virgin Mary around the year 2000), but a simultaneous vision of a person by 12 adults (who were presumably not on drugs) seems virtually impossible.

Huon and Toto, thanks for the examples. I’ve done some prior study of these, and they seem less similar to the early Christian claims the more you look at them. The Fatima visions involved only 3 people, all under the age of 10. Medjugorge involved 4 teenagers who were part of the Punk crowd and possibly on drugs (2 other teenagers that joined them later only saw a light). La Salette involves 2 children ages 14 and 10. At Lourdes only 1, again, young girl saw the virgin Mary. ToTo, I’ve seen that Elvis web sight before. It looks like a website just for fun; I don’t think any of the reports there are from people who are serious. Here’s one example:

“He came to the party my Fraternity had for our initiation. I was pretty wasted so it was hazy, but I know it was him. He came up and congratulated me. However, when I replied ‘Thank You, Thank you very much,’ he got all offended and karate-chopped me. I was just excited to meet him, I know it was him, there's no doubt in my mind. Unless it was just my brother.”

Also, the Elvis sightings phenomena seems to be amongst those that think he faked his death and chose to live his life out in solitude. In other words, I don’t think anyone is claiming to have seen Elvis from the realm of the dead; instead, they are seeing someone that looks similar to Elvis and thinking that maybe that is the real Elvis incognito.

Your suggestion to google <sightings of dead people> however was fruitful. Still no specifically identified people, but seemingly good evidence that mass private hallucinations of dead people were indeed happening amongst adults without drug use after the East Asia tsunami a couple years ago. ABC News reported the following in an article titled “Thai tsunami trauma sparks foreign ghost sightings,” written on Jan 14, 2005 (Online at: http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems...1/s1282281.htm)

A second surge of tsunami terror is hitting southern Thailand, but this time it is a wave of foreign ghosts terrifying locals in what health experts described as an outpouring of delayed mass trauma. Tales of ghost sightings in the six worst hit southern provinces have become endemic, with many locals saying they are too terrified to venture near the beach or into the ocean…."This is a type of mass hallucination that is a cue to the trauma being suffered by people who are missing so many dead people, and seeing so many dead people, and only talking about dead people," Thai psychologist and media commentator Wallop Piyamanotham said….Mr Wallop said widespread trauma began to set in about four days after the waves hit. "This is when people start seeing these farangs (foreigners) walking on the sand or in the ocean," he said, adding the sightings started about the same time as people "began calling for help, crying, some scared". Many people said they could not escape the smell of death or the sights they had seen while assisting in the crisis, he said. Mr Wallop said the reason almost all ghost sightings appear to involve foreign tourists stems from a belief that spirits can only be put to rest by relatives at the scene, such as was done to many Thai victims. "Thai people believe that when people die, a relative has to cremate them or bless them. If this is not done or the body is not found, people believe the person will appear over and over again to show where they are," he said.

Still, it seems there’s got to be more/better examples somewhere that are more similar to the early Christian claim. I’m looking for an example(s), ancient or modern, where it is claimed that more than a dozen still living and identifiable adults (i.e. the claim could be checked at the time) saw the same dead person (in either individual visions, or in a group vision). Does anyone have such an example? I’m not so much doubting that mass individual visions/dreams can occur; it’s more a case of looking for the best illustration of such phenomena that is comparable to the claim we see in 1 Cor 15:5-7.

Also, for those like me that find it basically impossible that 12 people experienced a simultaneous vision of Jesus, I'm still curious any ideas folks have for how such a tradition came about while those 12 were still alive (assuming that is what is intended in 1 Cor 15:5). My best stab at the problem is as outlined earlier: Multiple individual visions/dreams/experiences of presence, with those of leadership quality being selected into positions of authority, marked as such with the claim of an appearance expereince, authority then becoming the overriding emphasis, with the details and veracity of the appearance claims never really being questioned, and possibly the rise of an urban legend that the 12 saw Jesus at the same time, again never questioned and, just as important, never corrected by the 12 themselves.

Kris