steve_bnk

It is alway possible Moses conciously conjoured up the whole thing in the inererest of bringing his people togethjer. Same could be saod of Mohammed.

IamJoseph

E.g. LOVE THE STRANGER, DO NOT LIE TO THE STRANGER; EQUAL RIGHTS TO THE INHABITANT AS THE STRANGER; etc, etc. Know of anther religion which dares the same?!

This displays the absolute veracity of the hebrew writings - its not a candy coated book [like other scriptures who never malign their own!], and it does not shy away from the truth. Most of the charges by others are lifted from the Hebrew writings itself. But mostly, it is distorted, and half sentences are selected. There were some wars where prisoners were forbidden, for supersticious reasonings - Israel would have met the same faith had she lost [check the history of all wars pre-3000]. In this particuar war, it was strictly self defense, and incurred only after a peace offer was rejected, and unconditional death was responded with.

There was never any stealing of lands by the israelites - all their wars are related to one particular land only, denied them by a host of nations throughout history. Today, both christianity and islam are laying claim to Jerusalem - each positing a contradicting portrayal of history and charges against the Jews. Both cannot be right!

IamJoseph

I wonder how Moses could have conjoured the copious listing of names, dod and dob's - of generations of mankind for 2500 years - and get every name scientifically authentic of its period. I doubt such a feat was emulated by Mohammed or Jesus! :wave:

spamandham

No, more like TITHE TO THE PRIEST CLASS AND BE GOOD LITTLE SERVANTS TO THE KING.

These commands are depicted as *good*. Why would there be a need to candy coat that which is deemed good and holy?

You only refer to it in that light today, because we see such actions as self evidently evil. But the writers didn't see it that way or portray it that way....just as the Nazis you keep referring to thought their policies were good. Obviously, no gods had anything to do with either policy, or the texts they spawned.

IamJoseph

I never imagined I could dent your views!

Yet the greatest OPEN miracle is the return of Israel [and a language after 2000 years - both never occured before]. This was predicted in a 3000 year prophesy [proven in hard copy by the dead sea scrolls], and it occured exactly as stated - as a remnant, when it was least plausable. Shall we say, some myths are more impressive than other myths - or some guesses are better guessworks than others? - or is it forbidden to allow anything right which concerns Israel!

JaronK

Are we reading the same book?

Sam 18:3-4 "Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul. And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his apparel, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle."

Note that's the King James translation, which does a strange translation of the word they call "covenant." The word is not the same word as the "covenant" between the Isrealites and God... rather, it's the word for a marriage contract. And it goes on from there.

You're assuming gay wouldn't be tolerated. What if it was, especially with a king who also had many wives? There's been much debate about the "Man shall not lie with another man as he would with a woman" bit, whether it means men can never be sexual together or whether it means something else entirely (such as men shall not treat other men as women in bed, which is a power dynamic issue). Remember, the Romans were fine with homosexuality in certain ways and the Greeks were even more so.

With that said, the line about Saul's upset with Jonathan's "choosing" (and here the word meaning a long term choice) David does speak to Saul not liking the arrangement.

JaronK

Toto

I don't have time to research this, but STD's did not enter Europe until Columbus' crew returned from the New World. I don't think there was any basis in health for sexual purity laws.

JaronK

No, there were STDs already, I'm pretty sure. It's Syphilis that came over from the New World, but a bunch of others already existed IIRC.

Still, I'm not sure they actually understood what was going on... back then they tried to cure such diseases by sleeping with virgins, so they really didn't get the concept. As such, I doubt any laws were being created to deal with STDs by slowing sexuality.

JaronK

IamJoseph

That's plain ridiculous. Covenant [contract] has no impact.

David never had many wives. Your possibly thinking of Solomon, nor do many wives signify gay. David was deeply religious, writer of the psalms, and is noted as second or third in priority of all Hebrew figures. The psalms have very deep meanings, and extend on grey areas of the Mosaic writings.

JaronK

I'm refering to the original word, not the word that the King James Bible chose in English. "Covenant" is what the King James Bible uses, but that's an odd choice because it's not the same word as what they translated as "Covenant" elsewhere. It's also translated as "Marriage Contract" or "Solemn Compact."

In context:

"That same day, when Saul had finished speaking with David, he kept him and would not let him return any more to his father's house, for he saw that Jonathan had given his heart to David and had grown to love him as himself. So Jonathan and David made a solemn compact because they loved the other as dearly as himself. And Jonathan stripped off the cloak he was wearing and his tunic, and gave them to David, together with his sword, his bow, and his belt"

One has to wonder if the translation in King James was written that way because of homophobia in the time of King James, as opposed to during the time of David. But don't take my word for it, read the various sections describing David's relationship with Jonathan. It's actually pretty clear, I'd say.

He had wives, including Jonathan's sister. And no, that in and of itself doesn't signify being gay... it signifies that one can produce heirs, even if one also sleeps with men. In other words, the fact that he had wives can make it okay to also sleep with men, because the usual problem (no heirs) is instantly solved.

JaronK