GotNoGlory

From my reading here; there doesn't seem to be any real proof that Jesus ever lived outside of what’s in the bible. I think we can rule out that there was ever an Adam or Eve or even a Noah. But I've been wondering about Moses, Joshua, and King David. I fell doubtful about Moses just because of the stories that go along with him such as parting the sea or turning a cane into a snake. Since David was a king I wonder if there is any historical proof outside the bible of his existence.

Toto

There is no extra-Biblical evidence of David - except for the Tel Dan inscription.

This thread on Tel Dan will get you started on the issue of whether the inscription actually refers to a King David.

There is nothing inherently improbably about an early king named David, except that his influence was undoubtedly exaggerated. He might just have been a local chieftan.

Anat

You can find some seals and inscriptions mentioning some of the kings of Israel and Judah here and on following pages. Of the kings of Israel that are mentioned are: Omri, Joram, Jehu, Jeroboam (II). Of the kings of Judah: Azariah (aka Uzziah), Jotham, Ahaz, Hezekiah, Manasseh and Jehoiachin. There are also seals of various members of the royal courts as well as Baruch ben Neriah. The controversial Tel-Dan inscription might mention the 'House of David', as might the Mesha stele.

spin

Tel Dan talks of a BYTDWD, whatever that means. It is highly unlikely that it refers to a dynasty, ie "house of David", as it wasn't written as two words. Its closest parallels are Bethel and Beth-Shamesh, place names apparently reflective of centres which had a temple, "the house of El", "the house of the sun (Shemesh)", "the house of the beloved (David)", which would suggest that David was originally an epithet of a god.

The Assyrians never called Israel the house of David, though they used "Israel", "Samerina", and "the house of Omri".

When did the David tradition (and the house of David tradition) emerge?


spin

Anat

If the name David was originally the name of a deity, what kind of deity would that have been? With a name meaning 'beloved' and fame (or notariety) as a warrior, but also a racketier/robber? And would BYTDWD be another name for Jerusalem (or part of it)?

spin

I only get to the possiblity of "David" being the name of a deity by analogy with the other place names. It seems logical. It may also be wrong. And I can't answer any of your questions. It's better not to hypothesize from a hypothesis! The first may be logical. The second is only a guess.


spin

Asha'man

Recent archeological evidence points strongly against Moses or Joshua. In fact, the entire Exodus and conquest of Canaan almost certainly never happened. The Hebrew culture developed out of Canaan natives, not conquerors drawn from escaped Egyptian slaves. Without an exodus and a conquest, it’s pretty likely that Moses and Joshua are also purely fictional.

David is a little harder nut to crack. The archeological evidence is pretty strong that Israel and Judah were never unified into a single kingdom. The grand kingdom of David and Solomon seems to be as much a myth as the exodus.

However, archeology cannot really rule out the existence of a person. All it can do is declare that the setting of a person’s story is not consistent with the evidence. So there may have been a David who was a small tribal chief, but there couldn’t be a David who ruled a grand and wealthy kingdom, since that kingdom didn’t exist.

Julian

As it relates to the OP, it really doesn't matter if Tel Dan refers to a place or the House of David since it most certainly does not refer to the person of David. Moses and Joshua are clearly fictional. Ditto for the patriarchs.

I do find it likely that some of the kings from the OT were probably real kings.

Julian

Anat

If the Tel-Dan and/or the Mesha inscriptions indeed mentioned the 'House of David' it would signify that as early as the mid-9th century BCE the kings of Judah were viewed as heirs of a founder king named David.

Celsus

[instigation mode]
The Mesha stele does not mention David, it mentions Omri. The term "House of Omri" in the Mesha stele, further, does not speak of Omri the historical character, but of an unnamed son of Omri oppressing the same Mesha whose successful sacrifice of his son stops the armies of Israel, per the Bible. The Black Obelisk, likewise, calls Jehu the son of Omri (Humri), when according to the Bible, it was he who overthrew the Omrides in Israel. What is not clear is whether anything historical about "Omri" was remembered or known. Bet Omri, as Lemche pointed out, is really a symbol of the kingdom that we called Israel, and there is little indication of what this title actually meant. Even if BYTDWD (Aramaic, not Hebrew) meant "House of David", there is no indication that this would refer to a physical or historical person. Why not just anthropomorphise some old deities to wipe out traces of polytheism in Israel?
[/instigation mode]

Joel