Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 12-28-2003, 12:16 PM

A new book has been published that may explain why the subject of a Historical Jesus arouses such passions:

American Jesus: How the Son of God Became a National Icon

reviewed here:

'American Jesus': Our Favorite Philosopher

Quote:

Jesus has been extolled by figures as diverse as Malcolm X (who told Playboy in 1963 that ''Christ was a black man''), Swami Vivekananda (who set up Hindu societies in America that embraced ''Christ the Yogi'') and the Yiddish writer Sholem Asch, whose 698-page fictionalized opus ''The Nazarene'' won international acclaim on the eve of World War II.

. . .[Y]ou don't have to be a Christian to love Jesus. Mormons, Hindus, Buddhists and other groups not in the mainstream have all sought to remake Jesus in their own image. In the process, Prothero maintains, they have ''conspired to steal Jesus away from Christianity,'' freeing him to be all things to all people. The fact that the United States is a Jesus nation ''does not make it a Christian one,'' Prothero writes. While the cultural authority of Jesus ''has been used to promote the Christian tradition,'' it ''has also been used to reform and subvert it, both from within and without, by Americans who see the man from Nazareth as a nondoctrinal, nondenominational non-Christian.''

Amaleq13 · 12-28-2003, 12:19 PM

I thought he looked fabulous in the three-piece suit!

Clearly no need for a "Queer Eye" for that straight guy!

Kosh · 12-28-2003, 04:01 PM

"Jesus just left Chic---a-----go.... and he's bound for New Orleans...."
- ZZ Top

Llyricist · 12-28-2003, 04:13 PM

Jesus is just alright with me......

or is it..."geniuses just don't ride with me"..?

Family Man · 12-28-2003, 05:09 PM

I don't have problem with Jesus. It's Christianity I have no use for.

Toto · 12-28-2003, 08:00 PM

This is not drawing the sort of scholarly responses that befit this forum. Maybe it's the eggnog.

Perhaps I should have posted this here: Lord, He's hot

Everybody's making money from Jesus, especially the high JPM's. Why should we be left behind?

Gawen · 12-30-2003, 03:05 PM

You have two points here. Jesus as a catch-all deity for anyone that wishes and a strictly American version/s. Your first para shows 3 personal, separate versions. Your last para seems to indicate the American version which many versions fall into. What got me was this:

Quote:

The fact that the United States is a Jesus nation ''does not make it a Christian one,''

Of course one could debate from both sides of the camp or from each separate viewpoint. It certainly depends on what one 'Xtian' thinks another 'Xtian' is. And then we have to find out and agree what a Xtian is. There is nothing definative because they all have separate viewpoints. Perhaps America is a 'hodgepodge' of Xtianity?
And

Quote:

''has also been used to reform and subvert it, both from within and without, by Americans who see the man from Nazareth as a nondoctrinal, nondenominational non-Christian.''

Have you any evidence of subversion? I can see the reform parts. And how does one think that the gospels are nondoctrinal?
Do you think, Toto, as the saying goes: "We make god in our own image" fits here? Personally, I'm out of my league here, not being a biblio-historian.

Toto · 12-30-2003, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Gawen
. . .

Have you any evidence of subversion? I can see the reform parts. And how does one think that the gospels are nondoctrinal?
Do you think, Toto, as the saying goes: "We make god in our own image" fits here? Personally, I'm out of my league here, not being a biblio-historian.

Jefferson was a Deist who appropriated Jesus as a moral teacher. He cut the supernatural parts out of the gospels to reveal an enlightenment-friendly moral teacher. I think a lot of Americans share this view, including Howard Dean, but it definitely subverts Christian dogma.

People clearly see Jesus in their own image, whether or not they think he is god.

Mageth · 12-30-2003, 03:28 PM

Do you think, Toto, as the saying goes: "We make god in our own image" fits here?

Not answering for Toto, but I think that's definitely the case, or, perhaps more correctly, that myths evolve or are adapted to work in changing societies/cultures. When there is change in society/culture, or when a myth travels to a new culture, either the mythology evolves to encompass the change/different culture or it becomes irrelevant. A notable example is the change in the mythology of the Native American nations that moved onto the plains with the introduction of the horse (or were displaced onto the plains from the eastern forests), who adapted their mythology to the buffalo, and who later had to further adapt their religion when the buffalo were decimated in the late 1800's. Another notable example is the drastic changes that were going on in Judaism itself before, during, and after the time of Jesus and the budding off of the Christian mythology, during a time of great cultural change. Yet another example are the various "flavors" of Buddhism that developed in India, China, and Japan that "fit" the respective cultures.

Similarly, the Jesus myth/Christianity has been evolving since the beginning to the culture(s) of the time.

Gawen · 12-30-2003, 03:40 PM

Ahhhh, now I understand what you meant by subversion. Yes, I think current American thought swings this way, but not so much as a pendulum. I reckon it all depends on how much divinity one puts on Jesus. Still, there needs to be an unbiased definiton of Christianity to make the claim "steal Jesus away from Christianity" and if there is, I don't know it. I agree with what you posted, but think it's in the minority at this time. (at least where I live)
Is the author arguing against this thought, for it, or just making an observation?

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12-28-2003, 12:19 PM	#2
Amaleq13 Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Eagle River, Alaska Posts: 7,816	I thought he looked fabulous in the three-piece suit! Clearly no need for a "Queer Eye" for that straight guy!

12-28-2003, 04:01 PM	#3
Kosh Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Orions Belt Posts: 3,911	"Jesus just left Chic---a-----go.... and he's bound for New Orleans...." - ZZ Top

12-28-2003, 04:13 PM	#4
Llyricist Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Fort Lauderale, FL Posts: 5,390	Jesus is just alright with me...... or is it..."geniuses just don't ride with me"..?

12-28-2003, 05:09 PM	#5
Family Man Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Superior, CO USA Posts: 1,553	I don't have problem with Jesus. It's Christianity I have no use for.

12-28-2003, 08:00 PM	#6
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	This is not drawing the sort of scholarly responses that befit this forum. Maybe it's the eggnog. Perhaps I should have posted this here: Lord, He's hot Everybody's making money from Jesus, especially the high JPM's. Why should we be left behind?

12-30-2003, 03:28 PM	#9
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Do you think, Toto, as the saying goes: "We make god in our own image" fits here? Not answering for Toto, but I think that's definitely the case, or, perhaps more correctly, that myths evolve or are adapted to work in changing societies/cultures. When there is change in society/culture, or when a myth travels to a new culture, either the mythology evolves to encompass the change/different culture or it becomes irrelevant. A notable example is the change in the mythology of the Native American nations that moved onto the plains with the introduction of the horse (or were displaced onto the plains from the eastern forests), who adapted their mythology to the buffalo, and who later had to further adapt their religion when the buffalo were decimated in the late 1800's. Another notable example is the drastic changes that were going on in Judaism itself before, during, and after the time of Jesus and the budding off of the Christian mythology, during a time of great cultural change. Yet another example are the various "flavors" of Buddhism that developed in India, China, and Japan that "fit" the respective cultures. Similarly, the Jesus myth/Christianity has been evolving since the beginning to the culture(s) of the time.

12-30-2003, 03:40 PM	#10
Gawen Contributor Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Cylon Occupied Texas, but a Michigander @ heart Posts: 10,326	Ahhhh, now I understand what you meant by subversion. Yes, I think current American thought swings this way, but not so much as a pendulum. I reckon it all depends on how much divinity one puts on Jesus. Still, there needs to be an unbiased definiton of Christianity to make the claim "steal Jesus away from Christianity" and if there is, I don't know it. I agree with what you posted, but think it's in the minority at this time. (at least where I live) Is the author arguing against this thought, for it, or just making an observation?

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