Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Clivedurdle · 08-16-2008, 11:10 AM

Sometimes I think we here tend to focus too much on some specific local mice and their beliefs - for example that Jerusalem is the centre of the universe - and miss the several huge elephants in the room - Egypt, Greece, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Rome, Carthage - and many more.

(Including India and China and the Celts!)

Minimalist · 08-16-2008, 03:33 PM

Yes, indeed. Too many people are suckered in by the fairy tales of the OT.

Zoroastrianism far pre-dates both Judaism and xtianity. Which doesn't make it true, either, but does give it the pedigree to be the inspirational dogma for all the other johnny-come-latelys.

Tigers! · 08-17-2008, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstafleu

The excellent point about how, after 50 years, most presumptive returnees would be of the second generation remains of course valid.

Gerard Stafleu

That comment has a certain historical resonance for us today based upon currents claims to the area around and including Israel from various peoples.

Minimalist · 08-17-2008, 05:11 PM

Yes, I always have to laugh at some xtian who makes that pro-Israel argument. The argument generally goes something like this:

Me: "Right. And if some Cherokee knocked on the door of your trailer in Alabama and told you that his ancestors used to live there so you should get out, you would what? Just leave?

Him: "That's different."

Me: "Why?"

You'd be surprised how seldom they have a reply.

Cesc · 08-17-2008, 11:52 PM

I remember reading somewhere about something to the effect that a story goes that when the israelites where taken to Babylon, their holy scriptures where taken from the temple in Jerusalem and lost. So when in captivity in Babylon their learned priests "reconstructed" the Torah from memory. I cant remember where I read that, but does anyone know of this tale?
And wouldn't it be true that the israelites went into Babylon speaking one language, then came back 50 years later speaking another language and their scriptures now being written in the new language?

Anat · 08-18-2008, 08:08 AM

The scriptures were not rewriten in a new language, only a different script. Only small segments of the Hebrew Bible are in Aramaic.

Minimalist · 08-18-2008, 09:11 AM

Actually, the first written records we have of any of that stuff is the Greek Septuagint. For all we know, whatever religion they had was based on oral tradition and they certainly would not have been the first religion in the area to do so...Zoroastrianism being the obvious case.

Sheshonq · 08-19-2008, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Thus, the ones who were sent back were most probably born in Babylon and were thus seeking to become rulers of a land they had never seen before.

How ironic, given the origins of modern-day Israel.

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08-16-2008, 11:10 AM	#11
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Sometimes I think we here tend to focus too much on some specific local mice and their beliefs - for example that Jerusalem is the centre of the universe - and miss the several huge elephants in the room - Egypt, Greece, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Rome, Carthage - and many more. (Including India and China and the Celts!)

08-16-2008, 03:33 PM	#12
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Yes, indeed. Too many people are suckered in by the fairy tales of the OT. Zoroastrianism far pre-dates both Judaism and xtianity. Which doesn't make it true, either, but does give it the pedigree to be the inspirational dogma for all the other johnny-come-latelys.

08-17-2008, 05:11 PM	#14
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Yes, I always have to laugh at some xtian who makes that pro-Israel argument. The argument generally goes something like this: Me: "Right. And if some Cherokee knocked on the door of your trailer in Alabama and told you that his ancestors used to live there so you should get out, you would what? Just leave? Him: "That's different." Me: "Why?" You'd be surprised how seldom they have a reply.

08-17-2008, 11:52 PM	#15
Cesc Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Copenhagen, Denmark Posts: 322	I remember reading somewhere about something to the effect that a story goes that when the israelites where taken to Babylon, their holy scriptures where taken from the temple in Jerusalem and lost. So when in captivity in Babylon their learned priests "reconstructed" the Torah from memory. I cant remember where I read that, but does anyone know of this tale? And wouldn't it be true that the israelites went into Babylon speaking one language, then came back 50 years later speaking another language and their scriptures now being written in the new language?

08-18-2008, 08:08 AM	#16
Anat Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: home Posts: 3,715	The scriptures were not rewriten in a new language, only a different script. Only small segments of the Hebrew Bible are in Aramaic.

08-18-2008, 09:11 AM	#17
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Actually, the first written records we have of any of that stuff is the Greek Septuagint. For all we know, whatever religion they had was based on oral tradition and they certainly would not have been the first religion in the area to do so...Zoroastrianism being the obvious case.

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