Freethought & Rationalism Archive

judge · 08-14-2008, 06:11 AM

Is there much evidence for the biblical Babylonian captivity?

Clivedurdle · 08-14-2008, 11:24 AM

Of course

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm1g8FFRArc

But it is an interesting question.

Assuming David and Soloman were only local warlords, what exactly did Cyrus put into captivity, a few tribes who didn't eat pork?

Is this another nation building story this time of troubled times with a good ending?

Might the Jews have claimed they built stuff that was actually built by the Persians?

Minimalist · 08-14-2008, 01:17 PM

He asks a very good question and the short answer is "not much."

There are the Babylonian Chronicles which note the initial attack on Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 597 and his replacement of the king.

That doesn't specifically address the exile.

Archaeology notes a destruction layer in Jerusalem at the time and a period of relative inactivity which indicates that the city was devastated but the region continued. In the late 6th century activity resumes at the city with Persian overtones.

Philip R. Davies (In Search of Ancient Israel) suggests that what we more or less know as Judaism dates from this period as a way of giving the returning....and Babylonized "Jews" a story to validate their claim to be the leaders of the society that they had been absent from for 50 years. Otherwise, the people who had been there all along might have been inclined to say "who the hell are you?" to the returnees. The Persians were quite busy with serious wars on their eastern border and Cyrus the Great was, in fact, killed in that war so it looks as if the Persians were attempting to stabilize their western border on the cheap.

Besides, given life spans at the time, how many people who were actually deported would have still been alive 50 years later and in any condition to make the return trip? Thus, the ones who were sent back were most probably born in Babylon and were thus seeking to become rulers of a land they had never seen before.

So the observation about a few tribes who did not eat pork might not be far from the mark. Israel Finkelstein noted that the absence of pig bones was about all that separated the earliest communities which became "Israelite" from their Moabite and Edomite neighbors in the early first millenium.

But it is a really good question.

Clivedurdle · 08-14-2008, 02:16 PM

Is the Babylonian Exile another example of the historicisation of myth?

http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=249124

How many more?

Minimalist · 08-14-2008, 04:03 PM

If Davies and his colleagues are right it is more correctly the mythologizing of history seeing as how the myth and the history arise at the same time and place to serve a current political need.

All we know for certain is that archaeology fails to uncover any evidence (so far) for a Yahweh-alone cult being located in Jerusalem. That tale only appears in the OT.

The Tel Dan stele suggests that there was someone called David who founded the dynasty of Judahite kings. There is nothing to suggest that he was in any way "Jewish" except that later writers adopted him and put all the trappings they wanted into the story. Anachronisms in the story lead some scholars to claim that it was written in the late 7th century while others, like Davies, hold out for a later date.

judge · 08-14-2008, 05:38 PM

One argument in favor of captivity might be that the later Hebrew script was adopted replacing the old Israelite script. Also Aramaic becomes the main language rather than Hebrew and elements of Zoroastrianism seem to creep into jewish mythology.

Also weren't many jews to be found in Mesopotamia after this period?

gstafleu · 08-15-2008, 07:16 AM

Something else that might add credence to some sort of Babylonian captivity is that it seems to be accepted that the Assyrians did in fact practice mass deportations:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia Assyria

The ancient people of Assyria spoke an Assyrian dialect of the Akkadian language, a branch of the Semitic languages. The first inscriptions, called Old Assyrian (OA), were made in the Old Assyrian period. In the Neo-Assyrian period the Aramaic language became increasingly common, more so than Akkadian - this was thought to be largely due to the mass deportations undertaken by Assyrian kings, in which large Aramaic-speaking populations, conquered by the Assyrians, were relocated to other parts of the empire.

Also see http://www.wsu.edu/~dee/MESO/ASSYRIA.HTM:

Quote:

Originally Posted by WSU

Beginning with the monarch, Tukulti-Ninurta (1235-1198 BC), Assyria began its first conquests, in this case the conquest of Babylon. The Assyrian dream of empire began with the monarch, Tiglat-Pileser (1116-1090), who extended Assyrian dominance to Syria and Armenia. But the greatest period of conquest occurred between 883 and 824, under the monarchies of Ashurnazirpal II (883-859 BC) and Shalmeneser III (858-824 BC), who conquered all of Syria and Palestine, all of Armenia, and, the prize of prizes, Babylon and southern Mesopotamia. The Assyrian conquerors invented a new policy towards the conquered: in order to prevent nationalist revolts by the conquered people, the Assyrians would force the people they conquered to migrate in large numbers to other areas of the empire. Besides guaranteeing the security of an empire built off of conquered people of different cultures and languages, these mass deportations of the populations in the Middle East, Mesopotamia, and Armenia, turned the region into a melting pot of diverse cultures, religions, and languages. Whereas there would be little cultural contact between the conquered and the conquerors in early Mesopotamian history, under the Assyrians the entire area became a vast experiment in cultural mixing. It was the Assyrian monarch, Sargon II (721-705 BC), who first forcefully relocated Hebrews after the conquest of Israel, the northern kingdom of the Hebrews. Although this was a comparatively mild deportation and perfectly in line with Assyrian practice, it marks the historical beginning of the Jewish diaspora. This chapter in the Jewish diaspora, however, never has been really written, for the Hebrews deported from Israel seem to have blended in with Assyrian society and, by the time Nebuchadnezzar II conquers Judah (587 BC), the southern kingdom of the Hebrews, the Israelites deported by Sargon II have disappeared nameless and faceless into the sands of northern Mesopotamia.

(my bold)

This article seems to make certain assumptions about Israel that may, in the light of Finkelstein and Silbermann, no longer be valid. But it also seems to confirm the practice of Assyrian deportation, specifically with repect to the region of Israel/Judah.

The excellent point about how, after 50 years, most presumptive returnees would be of the second generation remains of course valid.

Gerard Stafleu

Minimalist · 08-15-2008, 10:11 AM

Just a bit of backup, Gerard. Here is a translation of part of the prism of Sargon II which deals with his re-population efforts. The numbers, of course, as with all ancient stats should be taken cum grano salis.

The image is from a footnote in a book with the sexy title, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions by L. J. Mykytiuk. Hitting CTRL and + on your keyboard should zoom in a bit to make it easier to read.

Clivedurdle · 08-16-2008, 10:18 AM

A plausible scenario?

Some well educated Zoroastrian Persians settle in new homes in Jerusalem and start talking to the local tribes and write some stories and make up some history - in an identical way to how a milk allergy in my family is thought to be due to a Napoleonic prisoner of war getting involved somewhere and this also causing me to have a slightly Spanish complexion..

Minimalist · 08-16-2008, 10:58 AM

Interesting, Clive. Davies writes, on page 111 of "In Search of Ancient Israel"

Quote:

But the cult of this god is not the Yahweh cult of Iron Age Palestine: this deity is a single male god, creator of all the earth and all the nations, one who would be recognized elsewhere in the satrapy of Beyond The River as Marduk, or Sin. The Persian Monarchs would certainly have no difficulty in recognizing this deity as their lord Ahura Mazda.

08-14-2008, 06:11 AM	#1
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	Archeological evidence for the Babylonian captivity Is there much evidence for the biblical Babylonian captivity?

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08-14-2008, 11:24 AM	#2
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Of course http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nm1g8FFRArc But it is an interesting question. Assuming David and Soloman were only local warlords, what exactly did Cyrus put into captivity, a few tribes who didn't eat pork? Is this another nation building story this time of troubled times with a good ending? Might the Jews have claimed they built stuff that was actually built by the Persians?

08-14-2008, 01:17 PM	#3
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	He asks a very good question and the short answer is "not much." There are the Babylonian Chronicles which note the initial attack on Jerusalem by Nebuchadnezzar in 597 and his replacement of the king. That doesn't specifically address the exile. Archaeology notes a destruction layer in Jerusalem at the time and a period of relative inactivity which indicates that the city was devastated but the region continued. In the late 6th century activity resumes at the city with Persian overtones. Philip R. Davies (In Search of Ancient Israel) suggests that what we more or less know as Judaism dates from this period as a way of giving the returning....and Babylonized "Jews" a story to validate their claim to be the leaders of the society that they had been absent from for 50 years. Otherwise, the people who had been there all along might have been inclined to say "who the hell are you?" to the returnees. The Persians were quite busy with serious wars on their eastern border and Cyrus the Great was, in fact, killed in that war so it looks as if the Persians were attempting to stabilize their western border on the cheap. Besides, given life spans at the time, how many people who were actually deported would have still been alive 50 years later and in any condition to make the return trip? Thus, the ones who were sent back were most probably born in Babylon and were thus seeking to become rulers of a land they had never seen before. So the observation about a few tribes who did not eat pork might not be far from the mark. Israel Finkelstein noted that the absence of pig bones was about all that separated the earliest communities which became "Israelite" from their Moabite and Edomite neighbors in the early first millenium. But it is a really good question.

08-14-2008, 02:16 PM	#4
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	Is the Babylonian Exile another example of the historicisation of myth? http://iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=249124 How many more?

08-14-2008, 04:03 PM	#5
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	If Davies and his colleagues are right it is more correctly the mythologizing of history seeing as how the myth and the history arise at the same time and place to serve a current political need. All we know for certain is that archaeology fails to uncover any evidence (so far) for a Yahweh-alone cult being located in Jerusalem. That tale only appears in the OT. The Tel Dan stele suggests that there was someone called David who founded the dynasty of Judahite kings. There is nothing to suggest that he was in any way "Jewish" except that later writers adopted him and put all the trappings they wanted into the story. Anachronisms in the story lead some scholars to claim that it was written in the late 7th century while others, like Davies, hold out for a later date.

08-14-2008, 05:38 PM	#6
judge Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Bli Bli Posts: 3,135	One argument in favor of captivity might be that the later Hebrew script was adopted replacing the old Israelite script. Also Aramaic becomes the main language rather than Hebrew and elements of Zoroastrianism seem to creep into jewish mythology. Also weren't many jews to be found in Mesopotamia after this period?

08-15-2008, 10:11 AM	#8
Minimalist Veteran Member Join Date: May 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,808	Just a bit of backup, Gerard. Here is a translation of part of the prism of Sargon II which deals with his re-population efforts. The numbers, of course, as with all ancient stats should be taken cum grano salis. The image is from a footnote in a book with the sexy title, Identifying Biblical Persons in Northwest Semitic Inscriptions by L. J. Mykytiuk. Hitting CTRL and + on your keyboard should zoom in a bit to make it easier to read.

08-16-2008, 10:18 AM	#9
Clivedurdle Contributor Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: London UK Posts: 16,024	A plausible scenario? Some well educated Zoroastrian Persians settle in new homes in Jerusalem and start talking to the local tribes and write some stories and make up some history - in an identical way to how a milk allergy in my family is thought to be due to a Napoleonic prisoner of war getting involved somewhere and this also causing me to have a slightly Spanish complexion..

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