Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Toto · 05-10-2013, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Can anyone even imagine that with so much data and apologetics against heresy and heretics going back allegedly to the mid 2nd century there would be even the slightest possibility of acceptability of a "deviant" doctrine called Arianism? After 200 years the antennae would have been up and these deviants would have been arrested and burned at the stake right then and there at Nicaea. Gosh, from Justin and Irenaeus all the way to Nicaea, and they still had to fighting and tolerating and dealing and edicting and meeting and discussing and debating!

...

You discount the power of ideas. Arianism lasted well beyond the time it was made a heresy. The Inquisition was still fighting it, and probably would still be today if it were no so politically incorrect to burn people at the stake.

Duvduv · 05-10-2013, 02:34 PM

That is exactly the point. If there were so many "heresies" stretching back BEFORE the coercive state power came into being, and then continued long into the next period, then that doesn't really say much either for the actual existence of alleged heresies OR for the actual persecution by the state apparatus of heresies that did not disappear for a long time.

And of course in the case of Arianism (assuming it was what it was claimed to be) its status of heresy in the realm of of a rather obscure theoretical distinction in christology in the heads of its adherents was probably hard to relate to anyway by the state apparatus (if they actually cared about such fine distinctions among the literati).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Can anyone even imagine that with so much data and apologetics against heresy and heretics going back allegedly to the mid 2nd century there would be even the slightest possibility of acceptability of a "deviant" doctrine called Arianism? After 200 years the antennae would have been up and these deviants would have been arrested and burned at the stake right then and there at Nicaea. Gosh, from Justin and Irenaeus all the way to Nicaea, and they still had to fighting and tolerating and dealing and edicting and meeting and discussing and debating!

...

You discount the power of ideas. Arianism lasted well beyond the time it was made a heresy. The Inquisition was still fighting it, and probably would still be today if it were no so politically incorrect to burn people at the stake.

Toto · 05-10-2013, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

That is exactly the point. If there were so many "heresies" stretching back BEFORE the coercive state power came into being, and then continued long into the next period, then that doesn't really say much either for the actual existence of alleged heresies OR for the actual persecution by the state apparatus of heresies that did not disappear for a long time.

The police power of a pre-modern state is somewhat limited. So it is not surprising that heretical thinking persisted.

I'm not sure why you continue to doubt the existence of heretics. Look at any other ideological or religious movement. Differences of opinions are the norm. If you think you have the Truth^TM then anyone who disagrees with you is dangerously in error.

Quote:

And of course in the case of Arianism (assuming it was what it was claimed to be) its status of heresy in the realm of of a rather obscure theoretical distinction in christology in the heads of its adherents was probably hard to relate to anyway by the state apparatus (if they actually cared about such fine distinctions among the literati).

..

It is always possible that these persecutions over fine distinctions of ideology relate to a more substantial issue.

But often you see organizations enforcing a party line just to be sure that independent people know that they have to follow the rules.

Zwaarddijk · 05-10-2013, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iskander

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

It's worth restating that there is no evidence in the Talmudic sources or commentaries or midrashim that the 18th benediction on the minim had anything whatsoever to do with any Jewish Christians. It had to do with informers and internal saboteurs, and not necessarily from among the Samaritans, but rather among Saduccees and Hellenists of all varieties. The claim that there were "Jewish Christians" in Judea or Galilee is a myth that has no basis in any actual evidence.
Avraham Yitzchak Kook, who died in 1935, was way off base on this issue and many other issues (which are beyond the scope of this thread).

Do you think Rav Kook is a heretic or a charlatan? Torah org...?

The Catholic doctrine of punishing without mercy the heretic ,but treating the pagan with leniency is also found here as it is the burning of heretic writings and the praise of the perfect hate for the enemies of one’s own idols; the idol Hashem in this case.

Please pay attention to the side note: Dilling discussion of highlighted text text.
http://www.come-and-hear.com/shabbath/shabbath_116.html

Please pay attention to note 16 and 23

Talmud - Mas. Shabbath 116a

The blank spaces15 and the Books of the Minim16 may not be saved from a fire, but they must be burnt in their place, they and the Divine Names occurring in them.... This is its meaning: And the Books of Minim are like blank spaces.

It was stated in the text: The blank spaces and the Books of the Minim, we may not save them from a fire. R. Jose said: On weekdays one must cut out the Divine Names which they contain, hide them,17 and burn the rest. R. Tarfon said: May I bury my son if I would not burn them together with their Divine Names if they came to my hand. For even if one pursued me18 to slay me, or a snake pursued me to bite me, I would enter a heathen Temple [for refuge], but not the houses of these [people], for the latter know (of God] yet deny [Him], whereas the former are ignorant and deny [Him],... Let my Name, written in sanctity, be blotted out in water,20 these, who stir up jealousy, enmity, and wrath between Israel and their Father in Heaven, how much more so;21 and of them David said, Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? And am I not grieved with those that rise up against thee? I hate then with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.22 And just as we may not rescue them from a fire, so may we not rescue them from a collapse [of debris] or from water or from anything that may destroy them.

(16) Sectarians. The term denotes various kinds of Jewish sectarians, such as the Sadducces, Samaritans, Judeo-Christians, etc., according to the date of the passage in which the term is used. The reference here is probably to the last-named. V. J.E., art. Min; Bacher in REJ. XXXVIII, 38. Rashi translates: Hebrew Bibles written by men in the service of idolatry.
(17) v. p. 429, n. 5.
(18) Lit., ‘him’ — he meant himself but used the third person owing to a reluctance to speak even hypothetically of evil
befalling himself.
(19) Isa. LVII, 8; they know of the true God, but have rejected Him, thrusting Him out of sight, as it were.
(20) The reference is to the trial of a wife accused of adultery; v. Num. V, 23f.
(21) Not only do they themselves go astray from God, but lead many others astray from Him.
(22) Ps. CXXXIX, 21f.
(23) The meeting place of early Christians where religious controversies were held (Jast.). Rashi: the books written for
the purpose of these controversies; v. also Weiss, Dor, III, p. 166 and n. 13. [The meaning of Be Abedan is still obscure
in spite of the many and varied explanations suggested; e.g., (a) House of the Ebionites; (b) Abadan (Pers.) ‘forum’; (c)
Beth Mebedhan (Pers.) ‘House of the chief Magi’; v. Krauss's Synagogale Altertumer, p. 31].

Oh man, the dilling exhibit. So full of bullshit and misinterpretations. come-and-hear is a libelous bullshit website, steer clear from it. There are better online sources for your talmud needs.

Duvduv · 05-10-2013, 03:18 PM

Toto, it's interesting you would as me as an individual about doubting the existence of heretics when we both know that no corroborative evidence for their existence exists. Yet in other area such doubt is never unusual.
Or perhaps evidence of actual persecutions does not exist.
It remains an assertion that those groups existed. The existence of Christian communities, of Marcion and Marcionites in the second century are assertions founded on the claims of Church writers. Just assertions considered as fact.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

That is exactly the point. If there were so many "heresies" stretching back BEFORE the coercive state power came into being, and then continued long into the next period, then that doesn't really say much either for the actual existence of alleged heresies OR for the actual persecution by the state apparatus of heresies that did not disappear for a long time.

The police power of a pre-modern state is somewhat limited. So it is not surprising that heretical thinking persisted.

I'm not sure why you continue to doubt the existence of heretics. Look at any other ideological or religious movement. Differences of opinions are the norm. If you think you have the Truth^TM then anyone who disagrees with you is dangerously in error.

Quote:

And of course in the case of Arianism (assuming it was what it was claimed to be) its status of heresy in the realm of of a rather obscure theoretical distinction in christology in the heads of its adherents was probably hard to relate to anyway by the state apparatus (if they actually cared about such fine distinctions among the literati).

..

It is always possible that these persecutions over fine distinctions of ideology relate to a more substantial issue.

But often you see organizations enforcing a party line just to be sure that independent people know that they have to follow the rules.

Toto · 05-10-2013, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

Toto, it's interesting you would as[k?] me as an individual about doubting the existence of heretics when we both know that no corroborative evidence for their existence exists. Yet in other area such doubt is never unusual.
...

It appears that you adjust your level of skepticism depending on what you want to believe. Which is a normal human trait. But I don't see going over this discussion again until you have something new to say.

By the usual standards of history, the existence of heretics is not particular doubtful.

stephan huller · 05-10-2013, 04:08 PM

If there were Jewish heretics (a proposition which du>du> admits) why shouldn't there be Christian heretics? He's just another participant here that wants to make Christianity go away retroactively. Why not just ignore Christians if you hate them so much

Chili · 05-10-2013, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If there were Jewish heretics (a proposition which du>du> admits) why shouldn't there be Christian heretics? He's just another participant here that wants to make Christianity go away retroactively. Why not just ignore Christians if you hate them so much

It is not a matter of hate but of right and wrong, but I can see where hate would enter the argument made.

So how would you stamp out heretics in America today? And let's remember that fire is fire that was the same 2000 years ago as it is today.

To this I have suggested many times here on this DB that the best thing that ever would happen to America if they gather all bibles into a windrow from East to West and burn them from West to East.

That of course will not help, so in the end you have to burn all the churches, and then do it on a Sunday morning, and twice if you could.

The point here is that if they did not listen to Moses and the prophets why would they listen here now.

That is what fire is all about, which is the same for both with the only difference that the great divide is still real for the Christians in Luke 16:26, that Plato called the difference between syn-ousia and syzen = "seeing while not being" opposite to "seeing in being" wherein logos renews itself until the fullness of heaven has been exposed (in Catholicism this concept is celebrated with the "Exposition of Holy Mary," I think, or maybe it is called something different in English today).

mountainman · 05-11-2013, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clivedurdle

Might Ambrose actually be the key person?

"Lovely bath"

Hey Clive could you explicate the "lovely bath" reference please.

Thanks.

εὐδαιμονία | eudaimonia

Stringbean · 05-11-2013, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

If there were Jewish heretics (a proposition which du>du> admits) why shouldn't there be Christian heretics? He's just another participant here that wants to make Christianity go away retroactively. Why not just ignore Christians if you hate them so much

Quote:

Christianity and its Persecution of Heretics

They that approve a private opinion, call it opinion; but they that mislike it, heresy: and yet heresy signifies no more than private opinion.
Thomas Hobbes (1588-1679), Leviathan

http://www.heretication.info/_heretics.html

Just thought I would throw this out there. Cannot be as scholarly as the rest of you.

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05-10-2013, 04:08 PM	#137
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If there were Jewish heretics (a proposition which du>du> admits) why shouldn't there be Christian heretics? He's just another participant here that wants to make Christianity go away retroactively. Why not just ignore Christians if you hate them so much

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