Steven Avery

Please...
Respond to the Josephus quote.
Explain the coins referenced.
And tell us the name of the yellow region, in which Gadara is the only name.
http://www.iidb.org/vbb/showpost.php...1&postcount=68

And the NT is very clear this is country, a region, not a town.
And that it is against the water, just like in your own map.

Mark 5:1 -
And they came over unto the other side of the sea,
into the country of the Gadarenes.

Luke 8:26
And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes,
which is over against Galilee.

Luke 8:37
Then the whole multitude of the country of the Gadarenes round about besought him to depart from them; for they were taken with great fear: and he went up into the ship, and returned back again.

The Greek word is chora --
land of Judea
regions of Judaea and Samaria,
country of Galatia and Phrygia
region of Trachonitis

Never used for a city,
The NT has NO confusion or misunderstanding,
and it is also supported by externals.

Unless you come up with some real evidence for your
"fake construct.. cheat"
or an acknowledgement/retraction of false accusation,
I think we can close up shop. If such simple and clear
stuff is going to be belabored, time to move on.

Integrity first.

Shalom,
Praxeus from New York City
New York metro area (region)
New York state
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Amaleq13

According to the Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography, Josephus referred to Gadara as the capital city of Peraea.

How does that confirm that a reference to the city should be understood as a reference to a region known by a different name?

Steven Avery

Simple .. we find the quote referenced earlier.

http://www.bibletexts.com/glossary/gadara.htm
Josephus (Life, ix, 42) refers to Gadara as possessing territory "which lay on the frontiers of Tiberias" (= the Sea of Galilee). That this territory reached to the Sea may be inferred from the fact that ancient coins bearing the name Gadara often portray a ship.

Life of Josephus
http://www.rightlydividingtheword.co...obiography.htm
So when Justus had, by his persuasions, prevailed with the citizens of Tiberias to take arms, nay, and had forced a great many so to do against their wills, he went out, and set the villages that belonged to Gadara and Hippos on fire; which villages were situated on the borders of Tiberias, and of the region of Scythopolis.

Ok, will you agree with the NT reading now ? :-)

Wait.. maybe it was a "Christian interpolation" done later, in anticipation of this errancy concern ?? !!! :-)

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Amaleq13

That the city of Gadara could be said to have villages that belonged to it does not support the claim that a reference to visiting Gadara meant a region by that name.

If we look at another reference to Gadara by Josephus, he appears to have considered it a city (from the same website):

"Yet do I confess, that I took part of the spoils of those Syrians which inhabited the cities that adjoined to us, when I had conquered them, and that I sent them to my kindred at Jerusalem; although, when I twice took Sepphoris by force, and Tiberias four times, and Gadara once..."

In fact, every source I can find that is not a similar apologetic attempt to reconcile an apparent error in Mark describes Gadara as a city.

This one (http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...eo/Gadara.htmlwas particularly interesting:

"Gadara was a typical Hellenistic city that became a center of Greek culture under the Seleucids. It was the hometown of the Cynic philosopher Menippus [3rd c. BCE] who invented the genre of mocking narrative satire imitated by later Greek and Latin writers... In good satiric style Mark 5 portrays Jesus as expelling a demon named "Legion" — the basic unit of the Roman army — from the region of the "Gerasenes" (an inland city-state of the Decapolis south of Gadara high in the Jordanian mountains, miles from any major body of water). Matthew sets this incident closer to the Sea of Galilee in the territory of the "Gadarenes." Like the satires of Menippus, however, the setting of this exorcism story is purely imaginative, since there are no cliffs in the region of Gadara, much less Gerasa, that border on a lake. The site usually shown tourists as the location of this exorcism — Kursi below the slopes of the Golan 12 miles north of Gadara — has cliffs that descend to the sea but lacks evidence of a settlement in the 1st c. CE and or any association with either Gadara or Gerasa."

That seems like a less secure inference when one considers that some of the coins of Gadara portray Tyche on the ship which might be the actual reason it was included. It turns out she was a very popular choice as protectress of several Greek cities regardless of how far they were from any body of water. She was a goddess of prosperity who was often represented on a ship because she was believed to be the daughter of Oceanus, the Titan personification of the ocean.

Your reading still appears to lack any substantiation. Josephus seems to have considered Gadara a city and does not refer to a region by that name. This would appear to be the way the passage in Mark should be read.

Do you have any ancient source that actually identifies a region as "Gadara"?

Steven Avery

Sure the Josephus quote defacto did that already ..

"the villages that belonged to Gadara ..were situated on the borders of Tiberias"

You simply never explained how Josephus writes that if the villages are all miles from the Kinneret, next to Gadara city. The sentence clearly identifies Gadara as to the Kinneret, making it a region to Josephus, as well as a city. And that is true whether Josephus refers to it as a city five times or fifty times, the one reference proves the point, there is no falsification.

Also on top of that the New Testament makes it very clear, by every time specifically using the word for region/area/country and NOT using the word for town/village/city, perfectly matching context as well.

Now if the NT used a word for city, it would be very, very awkward, just like Gerash 30 miles away in Jordan iis very, very awkward and discomfiting for those marathon-running pigs on the Alex text. I really wonder how Holding harumphs his way out of that
-- "scribal error" ? The all purpose joke cure-all ? A pig soap-box derby ?

And if there wasn't a Josephus reference for the region, it would be a real "question",very legitimate to raise. although I would still consider the NT as internally consistent. Since today I know assuredly that ONE reference from Josephus absolutely proves the point for Gadara, what if that reference was lost ? Would the NT be less consistent and true ? The fact that most of you consider the NT as of no historica or geographicall value simply reflects your own confusion, and to a certain degree I would simply, on the second question, consider the NT as self-referentially accuarate, with a bit of hope for external collaboration.

However, as it stands, with external collaboration no less, the TR NT text is fine, good, dandy and perfect, if you are going to still try to claim some sort of error here, in the TR text, we simply are in totally different worlds of understanding.
Tis a waste of our times.

If an issue like this is belabored, no point going anywhere else, apparently nothing would ever be resolved or conceded no matter how definite.

================================================== ======

Ok, folks, I think I am calling it a wrap, you can have your forum back with minimal inerrancy static. You seem to have a couple of nice Christian folks to give you a litte feedback on a couple of issues, but the broad-ranged sharing from me .. tis time to close.

It's been fun, I may watch a couple of threads just to try to bring to conclusions with Peter and maybe one or two others, like Andrew, but I'm gonna start cleaning house here.

After the illogic of a thread like this one, combined with Diogenes rather hilariously giving me the Alex line, insisting that believers must use a JUNQUE text in discussions with him, thereby allowing him to declare all its ERRORS.
And we have NOBODY in the SKEPTIC camp "GETTING IT". And seeing that the paradigms of other discussions start from a falsified NT view (that is not surprising, however, those types of issues are dicey)... and seeing that a fellow like Carr is unchanged from our prevous outings, and will just (snip) a straight forward, polite, question -- again and again....

I realize there is probably nothing more of substance that can be shared, transmitted, or accomplished.

And the textual stuff, one of my favs, is irrelevant to most of you, anyway.

You forum folks are, please don't take this harsh or personally, for the most part, trapped in your own paradigmic petard. My heart goes out to you, I wish you the best, may you be touched by Messiah.

There is an occasional light bulb, a probing question, an interesting concept.
For the most part you have been cordial and good hosts. Thanks.
May you really reexamine and overhaul, seeking truf.

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Amaleq13

Contrary to your misleading paraphrase of Josephus, he does not identify exactly where the villages were but gives two different general locations for villages belonging to two different cities.

"So when Justus had, by his persuasions, prevailed with the citizens of Tiberias to take arms, nay, and had forced a great many so to do against their wills, he went out, and set the villages that belonged to Gadara and Hippos on fire; which villages were situated on the borders of Tiberias, and of the region of Scythopolis."

The villages are said to belong to both Hippos and Gadara. The villages are described as on the borders of Tiberias and of Scythopolis. It would seem we are being told of two different collections of villages. Hippos is the closest to Tiberias so any villages in question that border the latter likely belonged to the former. Gadara is closest to Scythopolis so those villages likely belonged to it. So, even if we assume that one could describe a region belonging to Gadara, Josephus does nothing to establish it on the coast of the Sea of Galilee. In fact, if we assume that Tiberias, Hippos, Gadara, and Scythopolis controlleged bordering regions, connecting Hippos and Tiberias cuts off Gadara from any access to a coast.

We have also see than your inference from ships on Gadara coins is faulty.

Therefore, your claim about Josephus and archaeology supporting your interpretation is false.

Steven Avery

This was extra fun reading about, because Yardenit and Hamat Gadar especially have been among my fav places around Kinneret.

There is so much information confirming Gadara being the region, and coming down near, or more likely to, Kinneret, that one hardly knows where to being.

Nice try .. but the map and the descriptiosn doesn't bear you out. btw, are you familiar with the area ?

================================================== ===
GADARA WAS A FREE-STATE, A REGION, AND THE NT MENTIONS GADARA NOT "PERAEA"

http://www.bibarch.com/Archaeologica.../Decapolis.htm
Each city in the Decapolis was a **free-state (polis)** whose territory included numerous small villages and rural settlements.

=============================================

http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE5/Herd.html
In the third citation ("Wars," IV. vii.) Josephus tells us that Vespasian marched against "Gadara," which he calls the metropolis of Peræa (it was possibly the seat of a common festival of the Decapolitan cities),

Notice that Peraea is not mentioned in the NT, but the country, or region, of Gadara is referenced.
=============================================

http://www.israelect.com/reference/W..._the_Blood.htm
“The Decapolis (George Adam Smith, Historical Geography of the Holy Land, pp. 602 and 607) was flourishing in the time of Christ’s ministry. Gadara with her temples and her amphitheaters, with her arts, her games and her literature, overhung the Lake of Galilee and the voyages of her fishermen.

=============================================
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE5/Herd.html
Science and Christian Tradition - Thomas Huxley
The Keepers of the Herd of Swine (1890)

(Amatha here is now "Hamat Gadar")

. At the period under consideration, Gadara appears to have been a good-sized fortified town, about two miles in circumference. It was a place of considerable strategic importance, inasmuch as it lay on a high ridge at the point of intersection of the roads from Tiberias, Scythopolis, Damascus, and Gerasa. Three miles north from it, where the Tiberias road descended into the valley of the Hieromices, lay the famous hot springs and the fashionable baths of Amatha. On the north-east side, the remains of the extensive [378] necropolis of Gadara are still to be seen. Innumerable sepulchral chambers are excavated in the limestone cliffs, and many of them still contain sarcophaguses of basalt; while not a few are converted into dwellings by the inhabitants of the present village of Um Keis. The distance of Gadara from the south-eastern shore of the Lake of Tiberias is less than seven miles. The nearest of the other cities of the Decapolis, to the north, is Hippos, which also lay some seven miles off, in the south-eastern corner of the shore of the lake. In accordance with the ancient Hellenic practice, that each city should be surrounded by a certain amount of territory amenable to its jurisdiction1 and on other grounds, it may be taken for certain that the intermediate country was divided between Gadara and Hippos; and that the citizens of Gadara had free access to a port on the lake. Hence the title of "country of the Gadarenes" applied to the locality of the porcine catastrophe becomes easily intelligible. The swine may well be imagined to have been feeding (as they do now in the adjacent region) on the hillsides, which slope somewhat steeply down to the lake from the northern boundary wall of the valley of the Hieromices (Nahr Yarmuk), about half-way between the city [379] and the shore, and doubtless lay well within the territory of the polis of Gadara.

================================================== =

Nice try. :-)

http://www.falcophiles.co.uk/maps/decapolis.html
Gedara was close to Kinneret, its villages and settlements would either go down to the edge, or at least the hills over thereof

(Ptolomy has the cities a little different)
http://www.falcophiles.co.uk/maps/decapolis.html

Oh, and all you did on the coins was offer a *possible* alternative explanation, which sounded more complementary than contradictory, nothing was shown to be "faulty" :-) However, the coins are unnecessary confirmation once we learn more.

http://www.bible-history.com/geograp...decapolis.html
Scythopolis is current Beit She'an.. across the river, quite a bit south west of the Kinneret (look at a modern map, probably close to Itabrium on the map) . Ergo each Decapolis city area is quite large. Hippos is across from Tiberias. The villages of Gadara and Hippos, should lboth have their boundry right by Kinneret, which would put them both "on the borders of Tibrerias. Their regions would have to be reasonably large, so the six miles right down to near the Kinneret would be expected to be part of Gadara, or at least down to the area between Yardenit and Ein Gev. so you would either go right down to the Kinneret or be on the hills leading right down to Kinneret. ie. Even giving Hippos the whole coastal region, which is doubtful, (see above) should give Gadara the hills right above the lake, exactly as in the NT. In fact, what the Josephus quote, and Roman geography Decapolis discussions, demonstrate is exactly what the NT says, that these 10 cities were essentially regions.
==============================================

End of story.
The NT, in the Received Text has an excellent description.
The skeptics might kvetch, but there is nothing there.

Save it for Holding, Miller and others using your fav corrupt text
.. you can hit them with the problems
with marathon running swine at Gerash :-)

Shalom,
Praxeas
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Amaleq13

I can read a map and that is why your interpretation makes no sense.

Why both? Do both also have to share a border with Scythopolis? How do you draw that line? Josephus mentions villages belonging to Hippos and to Gadara on the border of Tiberias and on the border of Scythopolis. That he uses the plural (ie borders) suggests two different collections of villages rather than a single collection shared by the two cities. One collection belonging to each city and existing on different borders of different regions.

Since it makes no sense for the villages on the border of the Scythopolis region to belong to Hippos, they must belong to Gadara. That leaves the villages bordering Tiberias as belonging to Hippos. Unfortunately, that would leave Gadara cut off from the coast despite the faithful certainty you and Huxley share that this could not be possible.

Sorry, but the "certain" assumptions of Huxley don't actually make anything doubtful. Besides, how are hills "exactly" like a cliff? You need to find a way of extending Gadara to a coastal cliff but we've already learned that isn't likely to happen:

"Like the satires of Menippus, however, the setting of this exorcism story is purely imaginative, since there are no cliffs in the region of Gadara, much less Gerasa, that border on a lake. The site usually shown tourists as the location of this exorcism — Kursi below the slopes of the Golan 12 miles north of Gadara — has cliffs that descend to the sea but lacks evidence of a settlement in the 1st c. CE and or any association with either Gadara or Gerasa."

I don't understand. When we consult websites that don't share your faith, we don't find the same assumptions being supported. :huh:

I'm not surprised you have decided to downplay your reliance on the coins even though you originally offered them right along with Josephus. Given images of Tyche on Gadara coins, there is clearly no reason to speculate about actual ships.

There just doesn't appear to be any credible evidence suggesting that Gadara or any region associated with Gadara included cliffs descending into the "Sea".

Steven Avery

Nope. They both would be to the Kinneret based on common sense with distances, and confirmed by the discussions of the folks who wrote about it in depth. Very possibly Gadara had the Scythopolis border.

Incorrect. I defintely allow it to be possible, although then Gadara would have the hills overlooking the coast, a rather common occurance, to have a coastal region, and a hill region overlooking. Even Huxley doesn't say it is "impossible" There are a number of possibilities , such as not 100% clean cut border divisions between the poli, Hippos being contiquous with Tiberias over the water and/or via the northern regions border (remember it is directly across from Tiberias) , and the vagueness in Josephus terminology, which wording allows for a lot of possibilities, and does not require Hippos to have a land border with Tiberias.

:-) That article misses a number of basics, not surprising. The first two you should already know.

First, Gerasa is irrelevant, they again are using the wrong Bible. Ergo there is no reason for Kursi to have
"any association .. with .. Gerasa"

Second, the site around Kursi should also NOT have association with Gadara, as Kursi is further north. There are two separate accounts, but the author is using the wrong Bible, and is improperly conflating the regions. Ergo, he is making criticisms based on his own misunderstandings.

Third, if you want to discuss the Gergesenes account,
Matthew 8:28
And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes.
claiming a geographical-historical anomaly, I think that will fail pretty bad as well. We can switch gears on that, (aka Kursi), on the next post, and you can lay out your claims. I'll point out now..
a) That is NOT a Decapolis polis, simply a country, and it is north of Hippos
b) the writer is acknowledging hills and cliffs,
c) it is also on "the other side" from Capernaum... And when he was come to the other side into the country of the Gergesenes
d) It is mentioned in Jewish writings like the Talmud, as I recall from when I looked it up :-)

Fourth-- they are apparently misreading the Gadara text as well, since there is no reference to a promontory rock, or falling down a cliff
" the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake" Luke 8:33
"he herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea
.. and were choked in the sea" - Mark 5:13

Despite the fact that some folks talk about a promontory, that is not what the Scripture says, you don't run down a promontory into a lake, in that case you would fall into the lake.

NOTE: (Gill points out "The Syriac and Arabic versions read, "the herd ran to the rock", or "promontory", and "fell into the sea" That might be an error that you can take up with Judge :-)

Now I know the geography pretty well, and there are couple of places that could match the account. One is around Ein Gev, where the hills from the Golan come down to the water. That is the area where the author of the article above might not consider the hills steep enough (however, he is apparently mistakenly looking for cliffs overhanging the sea). Or you might consider it as too close to Hippos.

And the much steeper place would be around Poriyya. This is closer to Beit She'an, (eliminating your other objection and fitting like a glove our Josephus reference), along the southwest part of the Kinneret, and closer to Tiberias. And that would match the phrase "against the Galilee" very nicely "And they arrived at the country of the Gadarenes, which is over against Galilee.". Luke 8:26 Those hills are steep, I have driven up the road there to the youth hostel and it is a humdinger sharp turn and curving road up the hill. A friend reports that Believers in that area consider it to be the "swine to the sea" locale, there has been a Messianic fellowship meeting in the Poriya Youth Hostel frequently over the years.

http://www.galileeguide.com/kguide/tour2.asp - Hit "Map"
"A pleasant stop along the road is Gofra beach, where hot springs bubble up close to the shore. Kursi, or Gergessa, a National Park archaeological site, was an ancient fishing village and harbour. It features a partially reconstructed fifth-century Byzantine basilica and monastery, and is the site of the miracle of the Gadarene swine."

Now of course we understand that Gofra beach is not the Gadarenes, but it is Gergesenes, and most of the historical marker sites don't realize there are two locales and accounts,

Look at Poriya on the map, and you will have an area with very steep hills going right down to the lake, you are also right by the junction to the Bet She'an road, and also you are "against the Galilee".

The steep hills from Poriya head right down to what is called Zinabri and Kinneret on the map (when I use Kinneret I am usually referring to the Sea, but here it is a village). I haven't been able to find a topographical map, but those hills are steep, and they come down close to the shoreline.

Very good, looks like pinpoint precision :-)

Actually, a lot of the Christian sites get this wrong as well, especially since they get confused by Gerash, from the wrong text, or, as above, they don't understand that there are two differing locales.

I simply dunno, and if you can find a site that shows and explains coins, I would be happy to look, I took your objection at face as possibly germane. I once owned a 1909-S penny, and a proof-set :-) Overall, I'm very pleased to have learned so much about the swine accounts, including their geographical locale, and the coin issue turned out to be secondary, or even tertiary :-) to the historical and archaelogical and topigraphical and scriptural study. Those are all obviously the main issue.

See above :-) We both should have learned a lot.. the difference is I trust the scripture account to be accurate, and upon closer examination, it fits perfectly.

This thread, combining the historical sources such as Josephus and Pliny and archaelogists, with our knowledge of the exact wording, has been a gem. You helped out by looking for every possible objection :-) Todah.

Shalom,
Praxeus
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Messianic_Apologetic/

Amaleq13

That appears to be an example of selective interpretation. Josephus only means both cities with regard to villages on the border of Tiberias? Why? Because that is what you need to assume Gadara had coastal territories. Sorry, but I don't consider circular reasoning like that credible though I do recognize how useful in can be in retaining one's prior assumptions.

I have no idea what this sentence is supposed to mean but I see nothing "common sense" about the assumptions it involves. The distances actually argue against your interpretation and the "discussions" of your fellow believers appear more designed to support faith-based assumptions than to logically consider the facts. Even if we accept that Gadara would require access to the "Sea", that doesn't require it to actually own any coastal territory. After all, it isn't like they were at war with Hippos.

Josephus talks about borders in the plural not a single border shared by both Hippos and Gadara with Tiberias and Scythopolis. He is talking about multiple borders involving multiple collections of villages belonging to multiple cities. What common sense actually suggests is that he is talking about two collections of villages belonging to two different cities and existing on the borders of two different regions. Given the location of Hippos and Gadara relative to Scythopolis and Tiberias, common sense suggests that any villages bordering the latter could have belonged to either Gadara or Hipppos but any villages bordering Scythopolis could only belong to Gadara. Common sense and logic then indicates, by processs of elimination, that the villages bordering Tiberias belonged to Hippos. This conclusion is consistent with commone sense and with geographic reality. Your conclusion is only consistent with your beliefs. Josephus simply does not say what you want him to say.

It is beyond "very possibly" given the geographic realities indicated by your map because Gadara is between Hippos and Scythopolis. It would appear to be the only reasonable conclusion one could draw from Josephus' statement.

Except to match your bible story exactly, you need mountains and tombs (both of which are near the actual city). There is really no good reason to assume Gadara controlled any land overlooking the "Sea" except a desire to preserve a belief that no Bible story could be factually incorrect. What you really need is to somehow transport the city, mountains, and tombs six or so miles to the coast.

Except that there have to be villages on the border of Tiberias which belong to either Hippos or Gadara. Since Hippos cannot realistically have had any villages bordering Scythopolis, that really only leaves one remaining conclusion. Hippos shared a border with Tiberias and Gadara shared a border with Scythopolis. And they each had villages on their respective borders that were destroyed.

Another look at the map suggests these villages may have been on the Jordan river since that would make a nice dividing line for territory. Hippos and Tiberias shared the coastline to the Jordan/"Sea" junction where Hippos had villages. Gadara had villages across the Jordan from Scythopolis farther south. Justus' destructive tour would simply have followed the Jordan south taking out villages on the border of Tiberias along the way. This is, of course, entirely speculative but it has the benefit over your speculation that it actually makes sense when one looks at a map of the region.

Glad to help though I harbor no illusions about the potential for any evidence or logical argument to change your firmly held beliefs. For myself, I've learned that there probably was a region associated with Gadara but I've also confirmed there is no good reason to assume that region included any mountains with tombs near the coast of the Sea of Galilee. There are mountains and the tombs near the city, as described in the KJ version of the story, but the coast is six miles away.