Freethought & Rationalism Archive

CX · 09-26-2004, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fta

Is there any historical evidence that Old Testament characters such as Abraham, Moses, Joshua, Saul, and David actually existed?

Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Saul, no. David, possibly yes, but not much like the David described in the HB. I recommend reading Finkelstein and Dever on the matter.

DaninGraniteCity · 09-27-2004, 10:57 PM

Tymtummest, what do you make out of II Kings 21-26? Isn't it odd that Deuteronomy appears at the opportune time for Josiah?

What do you make out of the fact that history doesn't know a complete Torah until Ezra?

spin · 09-27-2004, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amlodhi

Although I agree that the use of the determinative designating Israel as a people in the Mer-ne-Ptah stela is important, I was somewhat surprised by your description of it as a "very accurately written text".

Forgot to comment here: The presence in this text is quite interesting. It basically invalidates the reference to Ramesses in Exodus. (Pithom has already fallen by the way as a much later city, but late Hebrew writers wouldn't probably know about the origins of either.) Ramesses developed as a city important to the Egyptians under Ramses II, Merneptah's father. That means that our farcical massive exodus started its 40 years wanderings plus conquest when Egypt was at its strongest and in basic control of lower Palestine, which they controlled until the Philistines arrived, and when Ramesses, well, umm, didn't exist. After all the tribe was entrenched enough to have a specific location in the north-west according to the Merneptah Stele, using Ashkelon, Gezer and Yanoam as a trajectory, ie they had forced their way into Canaan and maintained their numerical integrity by the fifth year of Merneptah. Let's go back 40 years plus time needed to pop off all those Canaanite kings and we are at the start of the reign of Ramses II, yet the cities were built before Moses was born, at least twenty years earlier, ie when Ramesses did not exist.

Farcical numbers of exodists, non-existent cities (I could add that Beersheba was unoccupied at this time), conquests which left no mark, impossible logistics. Why try to historicize this tradition?

spin

Jayhawker Soule · 09-28-2004, 03:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tytummest

“The author of Genesis and Exodus shows a thorough acquaintance with Egypt, as one would expect of a participant in the Exodus.�? Archer, A Survey of Old Testament, p115.

Really?

Quote:

Can archaeology throw light on the question of the origin of Israel? The answer is not affirmative, as the interpretation of the archaeological evidence is not clear-cut. ...

I. Finkelstein pointed to the resemblance between the settlement process in the central hill country in Iron Age I and a similar phenomenon in the region during MB II. He proposed that the MB II sedentary population, after having been forced to adopt a pastoralist and seminomadic existence in the Late Bronze Age, exploited the opportunity of changing conditions in Iron Age I to return to sedentary life. This interpretation can be linked with the theory that the Israelites emerged from local unsettled Late Bronze groups, such as the Habiru and Shasu known from Egyptian sources. Such a theory perhaps explains the origin of most of the components of the Israelite confederation, but it still does not elucidate the identity of that confederation's nuclear group, which initiated Yahwism and was responsible for the traditions concerning slavery in Egypt, Mount Sinai, and the role of Moses. At present archaeology can contribute nothing to answering this question.

-- Archaeology of the land of the Bible; 10,000-586 B.C.E. by Amihai Mazar

Quote:

The event is suppose to take place in Egypt, yet Egyptian sources know it not. On the morrow of the Exodus Israel numbered approximately 2.5 million (extrapolated from Num. 1:46); yet the entire population of Egypt at that time was only 3 to 4.5 million! The effect on Egypt must have been cataclysmic -- loss of a servile population, pillaging of gold and silver (Exod. 3:21-22, 12:31-36), destruction of an army -- yet at no point in the history of the country during the New Kingdom is there the slightest hint of the traumatic impact such an event would have on economics or society.

[and later ...]

... we can now genuinely speak of unanimity of the evidence. Whoever supplied the geographic information that now adorns the story had no information earlier than the Saite period (seventh to sixth centuries B.C.). The eastern Delta and Sinai he describes are those of the 26th Dynasty kings and the early Persian overloards: his toponyms reflect the renewed interest in the eastern frontier evidence for this period by fort building and canalization. He knows of "Goshen" of the Qedarite Arabs, and a legendary "Land of Ramessses." He cannot locate the Egyptian court to anything but the largest and most famous city in his own day in the northeastern Delta, namely Tanis, the royal residence from about 1075 to 725 B.C., ...

-- Egypt, Cannan, and Israel in Ancient Times by Donald B. Redford

Please present the specific evidence that you find so compelling?

Amlodhi · 09-28-2004, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spin

Farcical numbers of exodists, non-existent cities (I could add that Beersheba was unoccupied at this time), conquests which left no mark, impossible logistics. Why try to historicize this tradition?

Hi spin,

I have no argument with your assessment. And, of course, we both agree that the Mer-ne-Ptah stela has nothing to do with the alleged exodus.

The (possible) mention of a people called Israel in this stela is only important in regard to dating this culture's emergence in central Palestine.

Amlodhi

Celsus · 09-28-2004, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaninGraniteCity

What do you make out of the fact that history doesn't know a complete Torah until Ezra?

Was there a complete Torah at the time of Ezra? Was there even an Ezra?

Joel

DaninGraniteCity · 09-28-2004, 09:17 PM

Nehemiah chapter 8.

The source of my statement is Richard Friedman's opinion that Ezra was the Redactor of the Pentateuch.

Ted Hoffman · 09-29-2004, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregor2

I wondered how long it would take Asha'man or Celsus to respond to Abraham's fallacious post - 1 hour and 10 minutes. Surely we can do better than that.

I took one day to respond to Metacrock's recent garbage when I started the thread "Responding to Metacrock's Loud Bangs". But after that, he told fellow Christians he will never do apologetics again.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

09-27-2004, 10:57 PM	#32
DaninGraniteCity Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,958	Tymtummest, what do you make out of II Kings 21-26? Isn't it odd that Deuteronomy appears at the opportune time for Josiah? What do you make out of the fact that history doesn't know a complete Torah until Ezra?

09-28-2004, 09:17 PM	#37
DaninGraniteCity Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Illinois Posts: 1,958	Nehemiah chapter 8. The source of my statement is Richard Friedman's opinion that Ezra was the Redactor of the Pentateuch.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.