spamandham

I'm sure I'm not the first to notice common themes in the works of Josephus and the Gospels, in particular, Wars. I'll give a couple of examples in a moment, but first, a few questions if you agree they do indeed share common themes.

Why do these themes recur? Does it indicate a much earlier source for both Josephus Wars and the Gospels? Does it simply indicate familiar ideas floating around incorporated by both authors? Does it indicate the Gospel story was based on Josephus, at least in part? Is it just coincidence?

What else might we find?

First Theme: A son - an innocent - is sacrificed for the salvation of others in Jerusalem. The act involves complicity on the part of Rome, although Rome is not directly responsible. Food is a major subtheme. The son is consumed. The son's mother is named Mary.

Second Theme: A prophet named Jesus warns of the destruction of Jerusalem. He is given many lashes as a result. He was brought to the Roman procurator and beaten severely, but does not defend himself nor show signs of anguish. His mission was heralded by a star in the shape of a sword (cross?). Miraculous events related to the temple happen at the 9th hour on a day during the passover celebration.

First story, Wars 6, Chapter 3, paragraph 4:
There was a certain woman that dwelt beyond Jordan, her name was Mary; her father was Eleazar, of the village Bethezob, which signifies the house of Hyssop. She was eminent for her family and her wealth, and had fled away to Jerusalem with the rest of the multitude, and was with them besieged therein at this time. The other effects of this woman had been already seized upon, such I mean as she had brought with her out of Perea, and removed to the city. What she had treasured up besides, as also what food she had contrived to save, had been also carried off by the rapacious guards, who came every day running into her house for that purpose. This put the poor woman into a very great passion, and by the frequent reproaches and imprecations she east at these rapacious villains, she had provoked them to anger against her; but none of them, either out of the indignation she had raised against herself, or out of commiseration of her case, would take away her life; and if she found any food, she perceived her labors were for others, and not for herself; and it was now become impossible for her any way to find any more food, while the famine pierced through her very bowels and marrow, when also her passion was fired to a degree beyond the famine itself; nor did she consult with any thing but with her passion and the necessity she was in. She then attempted a most unnatural thing; and snatching up her son, who was a child sucking at her breast, she said, "O thou miserable infant! for whom shall I preserve thee in this war, this famine, and this sedition? As to the war with the Romans, if they preserve our lives, we must be slaves. This famine also will destroy us, even before that slavery comes upon us. Yet are these seditious rogues more terrible than both the other. Come on; be thou my food, and be thou a fury to these seditious varlets, and a by-word to the world, which is all that is now wanting to complete the calamities of us Jews." As soon as she had said this, she slew her son, and then roasted him, and eat the one half of him, and kept the other half by her concealed. Upon this the seditious came in presently, and smelling the horrid scent of this food, they threatened her that they would cut her throat immediately if she did not show them what food she had gotten ready. She replied that she had saved a very fine portion of it for them, and withal uncovered what was left of her son. Hereupon they were seized with a horror and amazement of mind, and stood astonished at the sight, when she said to them, "This is mine own son, and what hath been done was mine own doing! Come, eat of this food; for I have eaten of it myself! Do not you pretend to be either more tender than a woman, or more compassionate than a mother; but if you be so scrupulous, and do abominate this my sacrifice, as I have eaten the one half, let the rest be reserved for me also." After which those men went out trembling, being never so much aftrighted at any thing as they were at this, and with some difficulty they left the rest of that meat to the mother. Upon which the whole city was full of this horrid action immediately; and while every body laid this miserable case before their own eyes, they trembled, as if this unheard of action had been done by themselves. So those that were thus distressed by the famine were very desirous to die, and those already dead were esteemed happy, because they had not lived long enough either to hear or to see such miseries.


Second story: Wars 6, chapter 5, paragraph 3:
Thus were the miserable people persuaded by these deceivers, and such as belied God himself; while they did not attend nor give credit to the signs that were so evident, and did so plainly foretell their future desolation, but, like men infatuated, without either eyes to see or minds to consider, did not regard the denunciations that God made to them. Thus there was a star (20) resembling a sword, which stood over the city, and a comet, that continued a whole year. Thus also before the Jews' rebellion, and before those commotions which preceded the war, when the people were come in great crowds to the feast of unleavened bread, on the eighth day of the month Xanthicus, (21) [Nisan,] and at the ninth hour of the night, so great a light shone round the altar and the holy house, that it appeared to be bright day time; which lasted for half an hour. This light seemed to be a good sign to the unskillful, but was so interpreted by the sacred scribes, as to portend those events that followed immediately upon it. At the same festival also, a heifer, as she was led by the high priest to be sacrificed, brought forth a lamb in the midst of the temple. Moreover, the eastern gate of the inner (22) [court of the] temple, which was of brass, and vastly heavy, and had been with difficulty shut by twenty men, and rested upon a basis armed with iron, and had bolts fastened very deep into the firm floor, which was there made of one entire stone, was seen to be opened of its own accord about the sixth hour of the night. Now those that kept watch in the temple came hereupon running to the captain of the temple, and told him of it; who then came up thither, and not without great difficulty was able to shut the gate again. This also appeared to the vulgar to be a very happy prodigy, as if God did thereby open them the gate of happiness. But the men of learning understood it, that the security of their holy house was dissolved of its own accord, and that the gate was opened for the advantage of their enemies. So these publicly declared that the signal foreshowed the desolation that was coming upon them. Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one and twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared: I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armor were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the temple,] as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence." But, what is still more terrible, there was one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a plebeian and a husbandman, who, four years before the war began, and at a time when the city was in very great peace and prosperity, came to that feast whereon it is our custom for every one to make tabernacles to God in the temple, (23) began on a sudden to cry aloud, "A voice from the east, a voice from the west, a voice from the four winds, a voice against Jerusalem and the holy house, a voice against the bridegrooms and the brides, and a voice against this whole people!" This was his cry, as he went about by day and by night, in all the lanes of the city. However, certain of the most eminent among the populace had great indignation at this dire cry of his, and took up the man, and gave him a great number of severe stripes; yet did not he either say any thing for himself, or any thing peculiar to those that chastised him, but still went on with the same words which he cried before. Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him. Now, during all the time that passed before the war began, this man did not go near any of the citizens, nor was seen by them while he said so; but he every day uttered these lamentable words, as if it were his premeditated vow, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" Nor did he give ill words to any of those that beat him every day, nor good words to those that gave him food; but this was his reply to all men, and indeed no other than a melancholy presage of what was to come. This cry of his was the loudest at the festivals; and he continued this ditty for seven years and five months, without growing hoarse, or being tired therewith, until the very time that he saw his presage in earnest fulfilled in our siege, when it ceased; for as he was going round upon the wall, he cried out with his utmost force, "Woe, woe to the city again, and to the people, and to the holy house!" And just as he added at the last, "Woe, woe to myself also!" there came a stone out of one of the engines, and smote him, and killed him immediately; and as he was uttering the very same presages he gave up the ghost.

Credit to EarlyJewishWritings.com.

thentian

How about the Egyptian who led a multitude through the wilderness to the Mount of Olives?

Wars, Book 2, Chapter 13:
"But there was an Egyptian false prophet that did the Jews more mischief than the former; for he was a cheat, and pretended to be a prophet also, and got together thirty thousand men that were deluded by him; these he led round about from the wilderness to the mount which was called the Mount of Olives, and was ready to break into Jerusalem by force from that place; and if he could but once conquer the Roman garrison and the people, he intended to domineer over them by the assistance of those guards of his that were to break into the city with him. But Felix prevented his attempt, and met him with his Roman soldiers, while all the people assisted him in his attack upon them, insomuch that when it came to a battle, the Egyptian ran away, with a few others, while the greatest part of those that were with him were either destroyed or taken alive; but the rest of the multitude were dispersed every one to their own homes, and there concealed themselves."

mountainman

IMO? The works of Josephus became available as source material, along with the LXX, and other authors of antiquity, such as Origen, Mani, Julius Africanus, Lucian of Samosata, Marcus Aurelius, Philostratus (in the Life of Apollonius of Tyana), etc (all non-christian) to those who were responsible for the forgery of the literature which was to become the new testament, and the ancilliary literature of Eusebius outlining the wonderful history of the church prior to the arrival of Constantine. We might suspect they were available in the libraries of Rome c.312 CE, and in the libraries of the eastern empire within a few short years.

Best wishes,



Pete

aa5874

Another passage that seems to indicate Josephus' writings were used by the NT authors, including the author of Mark, is one found in the "Life of Flavius Josephus"

In gMark, two persons were crucified with Jesus, someone called Joseph asked Pilate for the body of Jesus before even Pilate thought Jesus was already dead. Later Jesus is claimed by the author to have resurrected, but for the story of the author to be plausible, Jesus must have survived the crucifixion.

Now, in the Life of Josephus, Josephus saw many persons crucified and found three of his friends among them. Josephus goes to Titus and asked that these three friends be taken down, and only one of them survive.

Clivedurdle

What was that comment in John 6 about eating my flesh?

Are we looking in xianity at a retelling of a horrirific event from war?

spamandham

That's what I'm wondering. Could at least some parts of the the Gospel story be based on Josephus?

Is Josephus, the real "father" of the Jesus stories?

gstafleu

That may, or may not, have had some influence, but I don't think it is the root of the matter. As I show in my reviled food-plants thread, we see in the Eucharist an instance of a very common theme.

Gerard Stafleu

Toto

Joseph Atwill has written on these parallels. See this thread and the links in it.

aa5874

Perhaps.

Josephus also wrote about John the Baptist and was probably the only writer to do so, outside of apologetic sources.

Did the author of gMark get his story of John the Baptist from Josephus' "Antiquities of the Jews"?


Now if it can be established that the author of Mark was not a Jew and assuming this author wrote first, then this non-Jewish author needed a credible source, and Josephus who lived in Galilee may have been that source.

There is a passage in gMark which may indicate that the author was not Jewish and this is in relation to the anointing of the body of Jesus several days after he died and was buried, it would appear this anointing was NOT a Jewish custom. See Mark 16.1.

The author of gJohn corrected the author of gMark and stated that Joseph and Nicodemus did anoint the body of Jesus with about 100 pounds of myrrh and aloes before burial, as was the customs of the Jews to bury.

John 19.39-40 Josephus may indeed be the inspiration of the Jesus story, since the author of Mark may have relied on the credibilty of Josephus..

spamandham

...some interesting ideas there Gerard, thanks for the link. It seems to me that the euchrist, or at least something very similar to it, must have preceded Christianity, else it would be too bizzare to be accepted by early Christians. I look at Jesus' actions in the last supper as an after the fact justification for the existence of the practice, "...and that's why we do this whole body and blood business"

Even in our Christian saturated societies intimately familiar with the eucharist, if a cult figure handed out food and drink and told his followers to eat and drink them as symbols of his own body and blood, most would find the idea odd and abhorrent.