Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 10-11-2011, 09:43 AM

Just wondering if anyone had any thoughts on this:

Quote:

The philosophers did not exert themselves in contemning the appearance of the Lord. It therefore follows that it is the opinion of the wise among the Jews which the apostle inveighs against it. Wherefore he adds, “But we preach, as it is written, what eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and hath not entered into the heart of man, what God hath prepared for them that love Him. For God hath revealed it to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, even the deep things of God.” For he recognises the spiritual man and the Gnostic as the disciple of the Holy Spirit dispensed by God, which is the mind of Christ. “But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him.” Now the apostle, in contradistinction to gnostic perfection, calls the common faith the foundation, and sometimes milk, writing on this wise: “Brethren, I could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not able. Neither yet are ye now able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envy and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?” Which things are the choice of those men who are sinners. But those who abstain from these things give their thoughts to divine things, and partake of gnostic food. “According to the grace,” it is said, “given to me as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation. And another buildeth on it gold and silver, precious stones.” Such is the gnostic superstructure on the foundation of faith in Christ Jesus. But “the stubble, and the wood, and the hay,” are the additions of heresies. “But the fire shall try every man’s work, of what sort it is.” In allusion to the gnostic edifice also in the Epistle to the Romans, he says, “For I desire to see you, that I may impart unto you a spiritual gift, that ye may be established.” It was impossible that gifts of this sort could be written without disguise. [Clement Stromata 5.4]

Toto · 10-11-2011, 11:25 AM

Spiritual_gift

Quote:

In Christianity, spiritual gifts (or charismata) are endowments given by the Holy Spirit. These are the supernatural graces which individual Christians need to fulfill the mission of the church. . .

stephan huller · 10-11-2011, 11:55 AM

That is the obvious answer but why would this gift be guarded with secrecy by the Alexandrian tradition? Prophesy is very 'in your face.' Jeremiah wasn't subtle or mysterious. Also why the likening of the gift to the apocalyptic fire that cleanses the world of iniquity?

Toto · 10-11-2011, 11:59 AM

The implication seems to be that people were not ready for the full gifts:

Quote:

Now the apostle, in contradistinction to gnostic perfection, calls the common faith the foundation, and sometimes milk, writing on this wise: “Brethren, I could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not able. Neither yet are ye now able.

andrewcriddle · 10-11-2011, 12:47 PM

This passage from later in Stromateis 5 may be relevant

Quote:

Rightly then, Plato, in the Epistles, treating of God, says: We must speak in enigmas; that should the tablet come by any mischance on its leaves either by sea or land, he who reads may remain ignorant. For the God of the universe, who is above all speech, all conception, all thought, can never be committed to writing, being inexpressible even by His own power. And this too Plato showed, by saying: Considering, then, these things, take care lest some time or other you repent on account of the present things, departing in a manner unworthy. The greatest safeguard is not to write, but learn; for it is utterly impossible that what is written will not vanish.

Clement is using (pseudo)-Plato here to argue for teaching orally and not by writing.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 10-11-2011, 01:15 PM

Yes I think Andrew hit the nail right on the head. That's the ticket. Thank you Andrew that's what I was looking for. All of which brings us back to the consistent parallel between Clement and those criticized by Irenaeus in Book Three:

Quote:

When, however, they are confuted from the Scriptures, they turn round and accuse these same Scriptures, as if they were not correct, nor of authority, and [assert] that they are ambiguous, and that the truth cannot be extracted from them by those who are ignorant of tradition. For [they allege] that the truth was not delivered by means of written documents, but viva voce: wherefore also Paul declared, "But we speak wisdom among those that are perfect, but not the wisdom of this world." And this wisdom each one of them alleges to be the fiction of his own inventing, forsooth; so that, according to their idea, the truth properly resides at one time in Valentinus, at another in Marcion, at another in Cerinthus, then afterwards in Basilides, or has even been indifferently in any other opponent, who could speak nothing pertaining to salvation. For every one of these men, being altogether of a perverse disposition, depraving the system of truth, is not ashamed to preach himself. [Irenaeus AH 3.2.1]

Well done, thank you. Toto, is right too insofar as Clement interprets ALL of Corinthians in this way. Notice that Irenaeus's adversaries cite Romans chapter 2 to further their beliefs as does Clement here and in his exegesis of chapter 3 of Romans elsewhere.

stephan huller · 10-11-2011, 01:22 PM

Also as an inside joke between Andrew and myself, it is curious that the Letter to Theodore consistently references the idea of the kingdom of God being 'taught.' Morton Smith was puzzled by this and thought it might be a scribal error but it fits with the idea of some oral teaching having greater authority than what is written literally in the gospel(s). From the Alexandrian gospel:

Quote:

Jesus taught him the mystery of the kingdom of God

And then from Clement's criticism of the Carpocratian exegesis of the text (= their oral transmitted teachings):

Quote:

You did well in silencing the unspeakable teachings of the Carpocratians.

Thus he (= Mark) composed a more spiritual Gospel for the use of those who were being perfected. Nevertheless, he yet did not divulge the things not to be uttered, nor did he write down the hierophantic teaching of the Lord

and again:

Quote:

But since the foul demons are always devising destruction for the race of men, Carpocrates, instructed by them and using deceitful arts, so enslaved a certain presbyter of the church in Alexandria that he got from him a copy of the secret Gospel, which he both interpreted according to his blasphemous and carnal doctrine and, moreover, polluted, mixing with the spotless and holy words utterly shameless lies. From this mixture is drawn off the teaching of the Carpocratians.

stephan huller · 10-11-2011, 01:27 PM

And not surprisingly the text cited by Irenaeus appears four times in Stromata Book 5, and once in the same chapter I began the thread with:

Quote:

But to the perverse bad, although a teacher in few words,"- putting bad instead of simple. Expressly then respecting all our Scripture, as if spoken in a parable, it is written in the Psalms, "Hear, O My people, My law: incline your ear to the words of My mouth. I will open My mouth in parables, I will utter My problems from the beginning." Similarly speaks the noble apostle to the following effect: "Howbeit we speak wisdom among those that are perfect; yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought. But we speak the wisdom of God hidden in a mystery; which none of the princes of this world knew. For had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory."

The philosophers did not exert themselves in contemning the appearance of the Lord. It therefore follows that it is the opinion of the wise among the Jews which the apostle inveighs against it. Wherefore he adds, "But we preach, as it is written, what eye hath not seen, and ear hath not heard, and hath not entered into the heart of man, what God hath prepared for them that love Him. For God hath revealed it to us by the Spirit. For the Spirit searcheth all things, even the deep things of God." For he recognises the spiritual man and the Gnostic as the disciple of the Holy Spirit dispensed by God, which is the mind of Christ. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit, for they are foolishness to him." Now the apostle, in contradistinction to gnostic perfection, calls the common faith the foundation, and sometimes milk, writing on this wise: "Brethren, I could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not able. Neither yet are ye now able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envy and strife, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? " Which things are the choice of those men who are sinners. But those who abstain from these things give their thoughts to divine things, and partake of gnostic food. "According to the grace," it is said, "given to me as a wise master builder, I have laid the foundation. And another buildeth on it gold and silver, precious stones."

Such is the gnostic superstructure on the foundation of faith in Christ Jesus.

But "the stubble, and the wood, and the hay," are the additions of heresies.

"But the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is." In allusion to the gnostic edifice also in the Epistle to the Romans, he says, "For I desire to see you, that I may impart unto you a spiritual gift, that ye may be established." It was impossible that gifts of this sort could be written without disguise.

(Clement Stromata 5.4)

How often does this happen? Very rarely. Thanks Andrew.

mountainman · 10-11-2011, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The implication seems to be that people were not ready for the full gifts:

Quote:

Now the apostle, in contradistinction to gnostic perfection, calls the common faith the foundation, and sometimes milk, writing on this wise: “Brethren, I could not speak to you as to spiritual, but as to carnal, to babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not able. Neither yet are ye now able.

The chapter heading is

Quote:

CHAPTER IV -- DIVINE THINGS WRAPPED UP IN FIGURES BOTH IN THE SACRED AND IN HEATHEN WRITERS

the next chapter is

CHAPTER V -- ON THE SYMBOLS OF PYTHAGORAS.

This seems to indicate "gifts" via an oral transmission of "divine things" associated with various philosophical schools, "pagan" mystery religions, etc. in that it was purposefully not committed to writing. This does not prevent Clement from quoting the apostles.

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10-11-2011, 11:55 AM	#3
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	That is the obvious answer but why would this gift be guarded with secrecy by the Alexandrian tradition? Prophesy is very 'in your face.' Jeremiah wasn't subtle or mysterious. Also why the likening of the gift to the apocalyptic fire that cleanses the world of iniquity?

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