gregor

Helpma

I really wanted to believe, I really did, but God didn't like my attitude, so he sent a STRONG delusion so that I couldn't accept it and I would burn forever. Read all about it in 2 Thess 2, verse 11.

My dad tried to do better by selling some land and giving 90% to the church. However, he fibbed and said he gave 100%, and the holy ghost killed him instantly. Poor Ana.

My sister was on the road to the kingdom of god (not the one that is within you, but the phyiscal one), but she inadvertently called someone a fool, and then she made a joke about the holy ghost. She was written off.

We're an unlucky lot.

Wayne Delia

That's strange. Helpmabob didn't even mention JC, much less make any statement about Him. In fact, we pretty much assumed that he was talking about Allah. If you want to sub Jesus into the lineup, you'll need to do a lot more preliminary work.

WMD

Equinox

Harami wrote:
While there is a lot of disagreement in Christianity about nearly every doctrine, the doctrine of an eternal Hell is one where nearly all the denominations agree. The only major groups that support annihilationism (the idea that non-Christians are destroyed instead of being eternally tortured) are the Episcopals, Jehovah’s witnesses, and the 7th day Ads. These denominations together make up less than 1% of Christians. Why is this? Much of the reason is because the Catholic church before 400 CE believed in Hell, and they determined which books went into the Bible, so the Bible supports Hell.

More importantly, I’ve read descriptions of hell myself in many places in the Bible. Jesus himself does describe Hell as “eternal fire�. Some Bible verses you can check yourself are Mk 9:40-50, Mk 16:16, Mt 5:22-30, Mt 10:28, Mt 16:18, Mt 18:9, Mt 23:33, Lk 12:5, Lk 16:23, Mt 25:30-46, Jude1:7: Rev 20:10, 14

In fact, the main point of the whole new testament appears to be that the only way to be saved from Hell is to be Christian. Paul goes on and on about the “fact� that if you aren’t Christian, it doesn’t matter how good you are, you aren’t saved. It’s also worth noting that Jesus talks again and again about Hell. Many liberal Christians like to sugar coat Jesus and pretend he was all cuteness and sweetness. Sorry.

Lastly, historically known data suggests that Jesus believed in a fiery hell. Historically, much of the concept of Hell goes back to the Zoroastrians (around 700 BCE), who appear to be the first to talk about eternal fiery torment in the afterlife. The Jews were strongly influenced by this during the Babylonian captivity (around 600 BCE)– that’s why the Old testament has no concept of Hell prior to the bablyonian capitivity. Even afterwards, Hell was controversial, so it was largely left out. Of the OT scriptures, but was very important for apocalyptic Jews like Jesus or the Essenes.

The ideas of Zoroastrianism continued to strongly influence the middle eastern region. In Jesus’s time (30 BCE) , the belief in hell was popular and widespread. Hence, it is plausible that it was included on Jesus’ lips when the 4 canonical gospels of Mk, Mt, Lk, and Jn were written between around 70 and 95 CE. In fact, the apocalypse of Peter (which many early Christians considered holy scripture) actually goes into great detail describing Hell. Among many other tortures, it says that thieves and hung over fire by their hands, blasphemers are hung by their tongues, those who are vain are hung by their hair, etc. I guess it would be really bad to be an adulterer! Here is the apocalypse of Peter: http://www.earlychristianwritings.co...r-mrjames.html .

So we have the Zoroastrians and Jews before Jesus describing Hell, then Jesus describing Hell, the early Christians describing Hell, and the present day Christians describing Hell. It’s hard to get a clearer picture of ancient beliefs, which are often sketchy.

You may want to point out to your friends that if the Bible is true, and they go to Heaven for being Christian, they will be able to see you writhe in pain for all eternity – What a great way to be happy in heaven! The story from Jesus’ own lips describes this (Luke 16):

(Jesus said) "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'
"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'
Even if they somehow convinced you to be Christian, the Bible is clear that the majority of people will go to Hell, so there will be plenty of people to see. Not my picture of paradise, watching people be tortured.

Christianity between 50 CE and 300 CE was very diverse. A few of these Christian groups (such as the Gnostics) didn’t believe in Hell. That’s part of the reason that that Roman Catholic church didn’t pick the Gnostic Christian scripture for the Bible.

No one is forced to believe in Hell – one can always instead just decide to junk the Bible as a source of truth. However, nearly all Christian churches do believe in a fiery, eternal Hell for all non-christians, because this is what is in the Bible. If a Christian doesn’t like it, they don’t have to stay Christian, I suppose. Or they could become a Christian who doesn’t go by the Bible – like a Gnostic, or something. I guess I never understood why some people (Christian or otherwise) want to pretend that their own “sacred� scripture doesn’t say something just because they personally don’t like it. Sure, some interpretation is going to happen, but the stretches used to twist the text to avoid unpopular ideas can be unbelievable at times.

I call it “mental gymnastics�. Here is a story about a mental gymnastics class:
http://www-personal.engin.umich.edu/...5xhgymnast.htm

Have a fun day everyone, and hopefully no one will sprain anything!

-Equinox


P. S. Harami, the official doctrines of both Catholics and Lutherans explicity and includes an eternal, agonizing Hell for all non chrisitans. Are they aware that they are both giving their money and support to an institution they don't agree with?

Equinox

JGL wrote:
Yep, it would be. For decades the number of liberal Christians has been shrinking, and the number of fundamentalist Christians growing in the US. I'd guess that now it is 60-40 the other way amoung US Christians.

Take care-

Equinox

Chris Weimer

Why does it have to be one or the other? I say both are damned according to Matthew. Yes, even those who claim they are "saved" but don't give to the poor, don't have mercy, and don't have proper judgment are damned as well.

Destronicus

Yeah, like I said, I'm pretty Bible ignorant. Those are just the ones I could think of. But still, is the wage of sin death, or hell? Is there a difference?

Chris Weimer

Could it not be both depending on which book you read? Remember, the Bible isn't homogenous.

mata leao

Harumi.......my friend....if you knowingly reject the salvation from your sins offered by Jesus Christ you are in fact going to Hell. Years of lukewarm watered down, pablum based liberal theology has revisionistically written off Hell. Big mistake. And the very fact that you asked the question indicates that you may have some concerns about it....study this as if your life depends on it son..........there is a reason why so many intellectual atheists in their later years begin to rethink the exiistence of God......

Spanky

Dude. . .there is no hell!!!!

mata leao

uhh dude..........uh yeah there is! Hitler and Stalin are roasting in hell as we speak.....