Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Aspirin99 · 10-21-2005, 07:40 AM

How about this one:

1 Corinthians 14:33,34 - "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches."

Jayrok · 10-21-2005, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aspirin99

How about this one:

1 Corinthians 14:33,34 - "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches."

Joyce Meyer would probably head the list of women who want to forget that passage. As well as 1 Corinthians 11, where Paul says women are to pray with their head covered.

But christians like to pick and choose which of Paul's or Jesus' sayings to follow to the letter. If it isn't convenient or practical, it is dismissed as dated. But otherwise, all of God's word is perfect and infallible.

Jayrok · 10-21-2005, 01:04 PM

Matthew 10:23 would be one of my selections:

23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Jesus sent out his disciples to the cities in Israel.. not to the gentiles by the way. But, he was confident that before they get through all the towns, he would return in his kingdom. This verse gets ignored when brought up.

seebs · 10-21-2005, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philadelphia Lawyer

There's no hint that Jesus intends that there is anything prohibited to you by the Law that it's now OK for you to do.

Sure there is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 12, Verses 1-8

At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn, and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day. But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him; How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests? Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless? But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple. But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless. For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.

The law is subject to mercy. Each of the examples you give shows that a compassionate heart is necessary, and following the law is not enough; but we find also that following the law doesn't necessarily matter.

Likewise:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 15, Verses 1-14

Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying, Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition? For God commanded, saying, Honour thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death. But ye say, Whosoever shall say to his father or his mother, It is a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition. Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Then came his disciples, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Pharisees were offended, after they heard this saying? But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up. Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.

Eating pork does not defile you; it does not make you unclean.

You might refer to the permanence of the law:

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gospel According to St. Matthew, Chapter 5, Verses 18-20

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Well, then. When is all fulfilled?

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gospel According to St. Luke, Chapter 22, Verses 31-37

And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the cock shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me. And he said unto them, When I sent you without purse, and scrip, and shoes, lacked ye any thing? And they said, Nothing. Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Gospel According to St. John, Chapter 19, Verses 28-30

After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst. Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a spunge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth. When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

These things being done, all is fulfilled. Not one jot or tittle shall pass away until nearly 2000 years ago.

anthony93 · 10-21-2005, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Liviu

I think you're mistaken. Look at the whole passage:

This passage has nothing to do with how to obtain salvation. It deals with determining whether someone is saved or not. It basically says that you will know who is saved and who is not based on their actions, or "fruits".

hmmm. Well, I can see your point of view. However, the use of the words
many,
Matthew: 7 : 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

or Not everyone who says to Me

Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

strikes me as more general [and as a warning to belivers]. In the context though, it's fair to say your reading makes sense. I honestly have doubts about the historical Jesus speaking about 'false' prophets, because, lets face it, the apostles wouldn't have had a clue what He was talking about.

I have tended to read that passage as more general, and as a warning that real faith should produce visible effects, in the sense of say, compassion instead of self rightousness as an example. The thing is though, only the individual really knows what is in his\her own 'heart', so to speak.

Let me think about it.

Philadelphia Lawyer · 10-21-2005, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seebs

Sure there is.

What I obviously meant was that there is no hint in Matthew 5 that anything prohibited by the Law is now permissible.

Quote:

The law is subject to mercy. Each of the examples you give shows that a compassionate heart is necessary, and following the law is not enough. . .

I'm not sure the examples show that the Law is "subject to mercy." What they demonstrate is that the follower of Jesus must show mercy; he must not only follow the Law, but do better than what the Law requires. The Law entitles a person to extract an eye for an eye, but Jesus requires that you turn the other cheek. He is not saying that a follower of his can violate the Law and expect mercy, rather he is requiring that his followers show more mercy to others than they have to under the Law.

Quote:

. . .but we find also that following the law doesn't necessarily matter.

Not in Matthew 5 we don't.

Quote:

Well, then. When is all fulfilled?[quotations from Luke and John]

These things being done, all is fulfilled. Not one jot or tittle shall pass away until nearly 2000 years ago.

Jesus said in Matthew 5 that "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." As has been pointed out already, to read "till all be fulfilled" as Jesus' death, which occured only a short while after Jesus made this statement, makes the part about heaven and earth passing meaningless. Why would Jesus say that Law would remain unchanged until the passing of heaven and earth if it was to be invalidated within a year or two?

Also, it is totally unpersuasive to try to interpret Matthew 5 by reading back utterly unrelated passages from other books of the gospels that don't mention the Law and that describe events completely divorced from the speech in Matthew 5. Isn't the idea to interpret passages from the Bible in context? Christians on this board constantly criticize quote mining and skipping around in the Bible to prove a point or show a contradiction. But here you are, hopscotching around the New Testament in a desperate attempt to undermine the obvious meaning of Matthew 5.

Coragyps · 10-21-2005, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Also, I have not heard of a single case in early Christianity to today where a Christian cut off his arm our gouged out his eye because of sin.

I knew the mother of a kid in Duncan, Oklahoma who chopped off his right hand with a dullish Boy Scout hatchet for precisely that (perceived....) reason.

noah · 10-21-2005, 05:48 PM

Hi Liviu,

You wrote:

Quote:

The whole law was acomplished in Jesus by his sinless life, so at his death the Law was abolished.

Yet we know Jesus was not sinless. For example:
Regarding the commandments to Procreate "Be fruitful and multiply" (Genesis 1:28). , JC sins on two counts.
Jesus remained single his entire life. Perhaps more seiously, he also
encouraged others to disobey this commandment by recommending celibacy
(Matthew 19:12) despite his own declamation that (Matt 5:17-19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven:.

On another count, Deuteronomy 13:1, 4:2 commands not to add or subtract from the Law. In other places the Law is declared perfect, eternal and doable seee Psa 119:1-4 and Deut 6:25, and Luke 1:5-6, for example.

However, Jesus changed Biblical law with regard to divorce and remarriage. The Bible permits divorce (Deuteronomy 24:1) and does not consider remarriage a form of adultery.
But JC changes and actually subtracts from these law, declaring that remarriage is adultery. Jesus' reference to Genesis
isn't adequate because Moses knew Genesis and still proclaimed divorce
permissible. Moses also said that the Law cannot be changed.

Jesus changed the laws of kosher food as well. Biblical law teaches that what goes into the mouth indeed defiles (Lev.11:39).
But JC declares that "It is not what goes into the mouth that
defiles but rather what comes out of the mouth that defiles" (Mark 7:15).

In addition, Paul makes it clear that <b>all</b> have sinned. "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23); He also advocated the doctrine of Original Sin which means Mary passed that original sin straight on to Jesus.

Your other point, that JC accomplished the law, I believe is not supported by scripture. Nowhere in the Old Testament is any mention made of someone accomplishing or fulfilling the law. The law is described as perfect, and eternal and unchangeable, Deut 4:2,40, Psa 111 and Psa 119 for example.
Jesus himself contadicts the notion that the law can be "fulfilled" for example Matt 5:17-19: "Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled".
In fact, he goes on to state (verse 20) categorically that the law is the only path to salvation:"For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven". The Paharisses were keepers of the law. they preached and taught the law.

In addition, Revelations makes clear that <B>all [/B] has not been fulfilled:
"For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfillled"". It seems to me that "the words of God" mean his law, if they mean anything at all.
Also in Revelations is JC's statement again that the law is the key to salvation:Those who get to eat of the Tree of Life are those who kept the Commandments
Revelation 22:14, “Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.�?

Regards,

Noah

Helpmabob · 10-22-2005, 03:29 AM

I find many parts of the book of Revelation hard to visualise sometimes e.g - Revelation 22:5 - And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light:and they shall reign for ever and ever.

But I don't think that any parts are to be ignored, and no part contradicts the main message.

noah · 10-22-2005, 03:36 AM

Hi Helpmabob,

Welcome to the forum.

Quote:

But I don't think that any parts are to be ignored, and no part contradicts the main message.

Which parts don't you ignore, God's Old Testament laws? Are you more righteous than the Pharisees in your obedience of God's laws?

What is the main message? That God's laws are the only path to salvation. Or that faith in JC as Paul believes, is the only path to salvation? ALthough I grant you there are a number of places where Paul advocates obedience of God's laws.

Best,

Noah

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10-21-2005, 07:40 AM	#21
Aspirin99 Regular Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: TalkingTimeline.com Posts: 151	How about this one: 1 Corinthians 14:33,34 - "As in all the churches of the saints, the women should keep silence in the churches."

10-21-2005, 01:04 PM	#23
Jayrok Regular Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: USA Posts: 471	Matthew 10:23 would be one of my selections: 23When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Jesus sent out his disciples to the cities in Israel.. not to the gentiles by the way. But, he was confident that before they get through all the towns, he would return in his kingdom. This verse gets ignored when brought up.

10-22-2005, 03:29 AM	#29
Helpmabob Regular Member Join Date: Oct 2005 Location: UK Posts: 431	I find many parts of the book of Revelation hard to visualise sometimes e.g - Revelation 22:5 - And there shall be no night there; and they need no candle, neither light of the sun; for the Lord God giveth them light:and they shall reign for ever and ever. But I don't think that any parts are to be ignored, and no part contradicts the main message.

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