Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ubercat · 11-27-2005, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

When God saves a person, He does not make the person perfect nor does God immediately remove the person from this life. It would be nice if He did. Instead, God leaves the person with his old nature and desires. Consequently, those whom God saves need encouragement and support to study to learn about God and to reject the ways of the world and do that which God instructs in the Bible. I do not know why God does it this way.

Huh? I thought you said you were a Calvinist? If a person is saved, then they're saved. Period. If they're not saved, then they're not saved. Period. If they're saved, what do they need encouragement for? You think they'll lose their salvation?? :rolling: If they're not saved, are you gonna try encouraging them? :rolling: You should at least ATTEMPT some consistency in your stories.

-Ubercat

Ubercat · 11-27-2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The exciting part of this is that unbelievers get to find out if it is a scam when they die. That makes dying an adventure (maybe that is why people commit suicide; they get so excited, they can't wait to find out).

And here's that good ole' christian gloat. I was wondering when you'd get around to veiled threats. You think you'll be sitting at god's right hand side, laughing at us while we burn, don't you? Pride goeth before a fall. You think that if we simple humans on this forum can see through your arrogance, that your god can't? Good luck with that. Don't expect me to share any of MY aloe with you, when you get a rude awakening. :rolling:

-Ubercat

Wayne Delia · 11-27-2005, 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Yes, God has to save you BEFORE you will turn to Christ (otherwise, why would you seek Christ except, perhaps, to appease yourself or maybe to get into some girl's pants).

I've heard Christian girls are easy, but are they really that easy?

WMD

John A. Broussard · 11-27-2005, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

I do not know why God does it this way.

Well, at least this is an honest answer.

John A. Broussard · 11-27-2005, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wayne Delia

I've heard Christian girls are easy, but are they really that easy?

Catholic girls can go to confession afterwards.
*
*
*

So can Catholic boys.

Wayne Delia · 11-27-2005, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubercat

Huh? I thought you said you were a Calvinist? If a person is saved, then they're saved. Period. If they're not saved, then they're not saved. Period. If they're saved, what do they need encouragement for? You think they'll lose their salvation?? :rolling: If they're not saved, are you gonna try encouraging them? :rolling: You should at least ATTEMPT some consistency in your stories.

Technically, it is a consistent set of stories, with a major change which happened in the "No True Christian" thread in General Religious Discussions. rhutchin had identified himself as a True Christian, and also a Calvinist, with all the characteristics of salvation you mentioned above. When pressed to declare a list of criteria by which someone could be identified as a True Christian, he produced four criteria with various references. One of those criteria disqualified anyone who is currently alive: the requirement that a person remain faithful until death, which of course is uncertain and unknowable for anyone not yet dead. But when caught in a throw-away phrase that "atheists are thieves," rhutchin intentionally misrepresented his Bible reference, broke the Ninth Commandment, and refused to acknowledge, apologize, and repent - which disqualified him specifically from the ranks of True Christians by failing to qualify on two other criteria.

So, he's no longer a Christian, disqualified by the list of four criteria he posted, but the story line is actually consistent. He doesn't even dispute that characterization. People change, and this guy went through a big one, but his inability to admit he's wrong was more important to him than his own eternal salvation - which, according to his former Calvinist doctrine, was never actually set in the first place, since he found himself leaving the faith before he died.

Details and references are available on request, but that would tend to derail this thread.

WMD

Wayne Delia · 11-27-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ubercat

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The exciting part of this is that unbelievers get to find out if it is a scam when they die. That makes dying an adventure (maybe that is why people commit suicide; they get so excited, they can't wait to find out).

And here's that good ole' christian gloat. I was wondering when you'd get around to veiled threats. You think you'll be sitting at god's right hand side, laughing at us while we burn, don't you? Pride goeth before a fall. You think that if we simple humans on this forum can see through your arrogance, that your god can't? Good luck with that. Don't expect me to share any of MY aloe with you, when you get a rude awakening. :rolling:

Is there any version of Christianity that does not reduce to "Worship my invisible sky-daddy or He'll kick your ass?"

WMD

John A. Broussard · 11-27-2005, 10:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Proverbs 25:2 tells us that, “It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.�? Sometimes, people like Bishop Ussher fail to search out all the possible explanations for that which the Bible says or fail to reconcile their interpretation which other evidence in the Bible. Was Ussher misled by Satan? Yes, in the sense that we all tend to be lazy in our study of the Bible and Satan encourages that laziness.

So the good bishop and anyone else (including you) studying the bible may be misled by Satan.

How then can we ever know that what you or anyone else claims is a true bible interpetation is in fact true?

I look forward to your answer.

John A. Broussard · 11-27-2005, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

Anyone can be mistaken. The Bible contains mostly historical texts, and while it’s purpose is not to provide astronomical and geological knowledge, it does speak accurately when it provides information touching on these areas. For example, it refers to a great earthquake in the reign of Uzziah, so we know that, geologically speaking, there was an earthquake. There is abundant room for human scientists to research the earthquake and discover that which they can. Same for any scientific endeavor. A good scientist could consult the Bible to provide direction for his research.

Any suggestions on how the bible can provide direction for the discovery of new quasars, or to explain quarks, or provide an antidote for the coming bird flu epedemic, or ...

I'm sure you get the idea.

Please explain how the bible can do anything but impede science, as it has for thousands of years.

I look forward to your explanation.

John A. Broussard · 11-27-2005, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhutchin

The difference between the 4 billion year age of the universe (or whatever that age is estimated to be) and the 4,000 BC date or the 11,000 BC date all rest on the basic assumptions that support those ages. All these estimates begin with the same statement, “If we assume that…�?

I missed the current estimate of the universe's age by about 10 billion years, though that seems to have little effect on your argument.

The difference between your bible dates and scientific dates is that the bible dates are worthless predictors. The scientific dates predict, with considerable accuracy, everything from the chemical composition of the sun to the existence of galactic clusters.

Bible estimates began with "If we assume the bible is correct,"

Scientific estimates began with, "If our estimates can predict so and so, then we can accept those estimates with a certain degree of probability."

Haven't you already said that we can't know what the bible is saying?

Thank you.

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