Johnny Skeptic

But not nearly as many children as the God of the Bible has killed, not to mention adults, and innocent animals, and forcing innocent animals to kill each other.

God forbid murder, but required that his Son be murdered. How do you explain that? If Jesus had not been murdered, how would people's sins have been forgiven.

Of course, appeasing a God by killing animals and people is absurd, and was probably copied by Old Testament Jews from pagans.

As a side issue, do you believe that a global flood occured? If so, I invite you to participate in a current thread about the flood at the Evolution/Creation Forum. The claim that a global flood occurred is utterly absurd, and so is the claim that a localized flood occurred.

sschlichter

Of course, this was not the goal of the thread either.

You have stated that the OT law was immoral and now that King Hammurabi is moral. Please let us in on the data that you are using to compare the immoral Mosaic law with King Hammurabi's law.

sschlichter

Well, I am not sure how you can say more than 1 million / year but head count does not really matter.

The difference is that the earth and everything in it belongs to God. Whether your heart beats or not is up to God. How long it beats is up to God. If you reject him, he may let you live a long prosperous life or you may end up with meth mouth. Ultimately, it does not matter how long you have - just what you do with the time you have. No one gets injustice. Some get justice, some cry out for mercy.

For men to step in and kill other men (specifically innocent babies) is to put yourself in the position of God deciding who can live and who cannot. 1 million such decisions are made for babies in this country every year. They are injected with salt solution or their heads are torn off. This is wrong.

God cannot murder. Murdering is a crime that people commit.

Clinical

"Glory to God Who did take His servant for a Journey by night from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts We did bless,- in order that We might show him some of Our Signs: for He is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things)." [17:1] In the Quran, this is identical to Moses miracles at the presence of God at Mount Toor (Mount Sinai in the Bible).

"And We have put a bar in front of them and a bar behind them, and further, We have covered them up; so that they cannot see." [36:9]. This verse talks about the Pagans of Quraysh surrounding the House of Muhammed to kill him. God made them blind and Muhammed passed through them and migrated to Medina.
So Muhammed did perform miracles. And if the Quran did not mention these verses, it would not mean that he never performed miracles.
First of all the Dead Sea Scrolls prove the distortion of the Bible, not vice versa. Try reading any neutral book in that regard.
"And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright." [2:53]
See, verse 2:53 is talking about the book that God gave to Moses, which is the original Torah. What existed during the dawn of Islam was not the original Torah but 39 books (Hebrew Bible) that were written by anonymous authors hundreds of years after their supposed "revelation".
It's because God promised to preserve the Quran from corruption
"We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption)." [15:9]
The oldest manuscripts prove the authenticity of the Quran we have today, albeit with few little spelling mistakes which is normal.

This same promise was not given to the Torah or the Injil.
"The sentence that cometh from Me cannot be changed, and I am in no wise a tyrant unto the slaves." [50:29]. What 50:29 says is that God does not change His statements. This has nothing to do with Scriptures revealed to ancient prophets.
Because a final Message was to come for all of humanity. Those Scriptures that got corrupted were for their own times and peoples. There was no need to preserve them.
Jesus is not prophet Eisa of the Quran. Jesus is a mythological, fictional character. That's why his prophecy in Mark failed. If you want to believe of Jesus as a prophet (Not son of God), born of a virgin, and beyond mistaken, then you only have Islam as an option.
I am saying that Muhammed received revelations when he was among his followers, not in "private whispers in a cave".
I am also saying that he had power over nature, angels and men.
My friend, the Quran never gives what we know today as the Bible any kind of authority. On the contrary, it has many verses that testify to the corruption of the Torah and Injil. Please read on this from credible Muslim sources, not Christian apologetics.
A Book from Allah = Quran.
This is talking about the Torah revealed to Moses. The Torah that existed in the 7th century was not the one revealed to Moses. The Quran speaks against that "Torah" and renders it corrupted.
"Say: O People of the Scripture! Ye have naught (of guidance) till ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord. That which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) from thy Lord is certain to increase the contumacy and disbelief of many of them. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk." [5:68]
This verse asks them to keep the original teachings of the Torah and Injil that were revealed to Moses and Eisa. It also asks them to observe the Quran, which is basically the original Torah and Injil.
"Again, We gave the Scripture unto Moses, complete for him who would do good, an explanation of all things, a guidance and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord." [6:154]. This verse is talking about the Torah given to Moses, not that which existed in the 7th century.

The Quran explicitly spoke against the authenticity of the Torah and Injil in numerous verses. One popular verse is "Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby." [2:79]
Good, but you were using this to justify the genocides of Yahweh and his prophets.
That's the most accurate thing you said here.
These visions are fake and even some of those people admit that and become practicing Muslims again. And believe me my friend when it comes to such stories you cannot rival Muslims, but I do not consider such stories to be a proof for my religion. If you go to Muslim sites, you will find all converting to Islam, if you to Christian sites, you will find all people converting to Christianity, and if you go to Hindu sites you will find all people converting to Hinduism etc... Even on atheist sites such as this you will find these stories. Appealing to such stories and "visions" is a very, very weak argument. After all, why does not your god show himself in front of us?
I do not understand this.

Johnny Skeptic

I agree, and the following comment that you made was off-topic too:

That was an absurd comment considering that the God of the Bible has killed more people by far than from all other causes.

I still stand by my claim that Old Testament Jews were immoral because they considered forcing Hebrew slaves to be slaves for life to be harsh, but did not consider forcing non-Hebrew slaves to be slaves for life to be harsh. There is not any evidence that you can provide that will convince me to change my mind regarding that issue. I also consider it immoral that Jews killed their own people for working on the Sabbath Day, for cursing at their parents, and for practicing the freedom of religion by worshipping other Gods.

I have diverted attention to the existence and morality of God because nothing that I have posted has given you any trouble, and because I know that I can present other arguments that will be difficult for you to refute. I agree with you that I have gotten off topic. Would you like to discuss the existence and morality of the God of the Bible at the General Religious Discussions Forum.

The best that you would be able to accomplish in this thread would be to reasonably prove from a secular, academic, historical perspective that there is not any textual evidence that Old Testament Hebrews were immoral as compared with other groups of people in the Middle East, certainly not that Old Testament Jews adhered to the rules that Moses gave them. That is hardly a defense of the existence and morality of the God of the Bible. If I am not able to reasonably prove my case about slavery to your satisfaction, that is no problem since I have many other arguments that I know you would have problems refuting. One example is the flood. Whatever your position is regarding that issue, I predict that you would have trouble defending it. Would you like to discuss the flood in a current thread at http://www.freeratio.org/showthread.php?t=259291 at the Evolution/Creation Forum? Just out of curiosity, do you believe that a global flood occurred? We do not have to have a detailed discussion about that issue in this thread. We could do that in the thread at the Evolution/Creation Forum.

WVIncagold

Why do you not answer questions?

sugarhitman

If everyone was a king than nothing could get done. The world survives off of survitude good or bad that is the inescapable truth.



Also the theory that creation created itself is the most bizaar of all beliefs. Animals mutating into other kinds is just.....



Having an education without wisdom=none

sschlichter

sorry, not seeing anything miraculous about that.

then you should be able to point out the differences and their theological signficance without any problem. Please proceed. Should be an easy claim to prove.

If God speak but is unable to preserve his Word, it is problematic. If you claim God's word can be corrupted, then you will have to acknowledge that the Koran is also subject to that same possibility. If God says that the sentence that comes from his mouth cannot be changed, then why was it changed? Did he mean only certain sentences?

Why not claim the same for the Koran?

Why did Mohammed refer to Isa and teh Injil if it was corrupted. What was he referring to then if that the Isa and Injil that happened to be the only one in existence at his time.

I have read no christian sources on the subject. I have read only the Koran and it says that the Book from Musa is the Word of God. I see what the Koran says and then I hear what you say. that is it.

I see where you have stated their is corruption but I do not see that at all in the verse from the Koran. it says "ye observe the Torah and the Gospel and that which was revealed unto you from your Lord." nothing about corruption.

Mohammed was talking about the Torah, he did not say corrupted. You did.

This says nothing about the Torah or the Injil. it says Woe to those who, present tense. He is not talking about those who wrote, past tense.

No, I did not.

of course they do - out of fear for life or loss of family.

sschlichter

Because your question assumes we live in a moral culture and I cannot answer it when I know we are not moral.

sschlichter

ok, flood it is. I will read the thread and get caught up.

I am having trouble billing clients for the time spent discussing OT law. I do not seem to have a category on my time sheet for that.

~Steve