Mochan

This post will assume you are familiar with much of the stories/legends/myths regarding Jesus.

Anyway I've read a few books that question the validity of the historical Jesus, and some even say there is no Jesus at all, but simply that his story is woven from other god figures that existed before his time. Here's a list of such stuff, apparently from a book called "The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold" by an Acharya S (I do not have this book in question, I simply saw these details on the net). Please go through the list, or skip if you are familiar with them. I have a question or two afterwards.

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Dionysus/Bacchus, God of the Vine, was born on December 25 from a virgin mother and placed in a manger. He became a travelling teacher, performed miracles like turning water into wine, rode on an ass, was called "The Only Begotten Son," is known as the Lamb, called "Young Man of the Tree (i.e. -- he was crucified) and killed and then resurrected on March 25.


Attis of Phrygia was born on December 25 of the Virgin Nana. He was a savior who was slain for the salvation of mankind. His body was eaten by his worshippers as bread. He was both the Divine Son and the Father. On “Black Friday,� he was crucified on a tree from which his holy blood ran down to redeem the earth. He descended into the underworld. After three days, he was resurrected on March 25.


Krishna was born of the virgin Devaki on December 25. His name is also spelled in English as Christna and is sometimes called Christos. His earthly father was a carpenter. His birth was signalled by a star attended by angels and shepherds, and he was given gifts of spices. He was persecuted by a tyrant who ordered the slaughter of a thousand infants. He is depicted as having his foot on the head of a snake. He worked miracles like raising the dead, curing the deaf and blind, and healing lepers. He used parables to teach about charity and love, he died crushed beween two thieves, then rose from the dead in the sight of all men. He was called the Shepherd of God and was the second person in the Trinity. His discipled gave him the title Jezeus which means "Pure Essence."


Mythra of Persia was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, attended by shepherds bearing gifts. He was a travelling teacher with 12 disciples. His disciples were promised immortality. His sacred day was Sunday, the Lord's Day. He was the Good Shepherd and was identified with the Lamb and the Lion. He is called The Way, The Truth, and the Light, and was also called the Messiah. His religion had a eucharist, the Lord's Supper, where Mithra says "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."

In Egypt, Osiris is known as the God of Gods, the King of Kings, the Resurrection and the Life, the God of the Vine, and the Good Shepherd. He had a son, Horus, who was known to say, "I and my Father are One." Osiris was the First and Last, who died, rose from the dead, and then reigns in Heaven eternally. Those who believed in him would inherit eternal life. His flesh was eaten in the form of "Communion Cakes" made of wheate, the so-called called "Plant of Truth." He is said to give protection from the valle of the shadow of death. The hymn to Osiris is "O Amen, O Amen, who are in heaven." Amen is invoked at the end of every prayer.

Horus was born of the virgin Isis on December 25, in a manger in a cave, announced by the Star of the East and three wise men. His earthly father was named Seb, aka Joseph. He was of royal descent. He was a child teacher at age 12, and disappeared and later baptized at age 30 in the River Eridanus (aka River Jordan) by Anup the Baptizer (aka John the Baptist). He had 12 disciples. He walked on water, exorcised demons, and raised El-Azarus (aka Lazarus) from the dead. His epithet was "Iusa" (aka iesua aka yeshua aka Jesus). He delivered a Sermon on the Mount called "The Sayings of Iusa," and he was also transfigured on the Mount. He was crucified between two thieves, lay in a tomb for three days, and then rose from the dead. He was called "The Way, The Truth, The Light," the Messiah, The Good Shepherd, The Word Made Flesh, and was associated with the fish, the lamb, and the lion. He was the Krst, or the Annointed One.

A Temple in Luxor was dedicated to the Virgin Isis and on its walls were the Announciation where Thoth announced the immaculate conception of Isis for Horus through Kneph (aka. The Holy Ghost) who impregnates the virgin. The infant will then be attended by Three Kings bearing gifts. In the catacombs at Rome there are pictures of the baby Horus being held by the virgin mother Isis.


Zoroaster was born of a virgin. He was baptized in a river. In his youth he astounded wisemen with his wisdom. He was temped in the wilderness by the devil. He began his ministry at age 30. He cast out demons and cured the blind. He had a sacred grail. He is known as "The word made Flesh." His followers believe he will have a second coming which will usher in a Golden Age.



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Now, this got me interested so I decided to do a little research on some of the god heads mentioned. What happened was I could not find any references to the said similarities. For instance, I can find no mention of Krishna being born on December 25, and in fact some of the accounts I read on these other god heads conflict with what I have listed from Acharya's book. For instance, Krishna Devaki supposedly had had 7 children before Krishna (8 miraculous virgin births in a row? I think not!)

How much of that list can any of you authenticate to be part of that particular religion's doctrine/legends?

Has anyone read Acharya's book here? And are its contents consistent with what I posted? For all I know I may be quoting some idiot webmaster who didn't read the book.

And what are your thoughts regarding any similarities (be they true or not) to the Christian story?

Chris Weimer

Actually, all of that is crap. Five people being born on December 25th? Come on, man, that's not even close to being believable.

Toto

Unfortunately, Acharya S is not a good source for details. A lot of her information comes from unreliable 19th c. sources that do not stand up to modern critical scrutiny. Robert Price's review of The Christ Conspiracy is now online here

(Read the review for details).

You can also read Richard Carrier's comments on one of those sources, Kersey Graves, which Acharya S still vouches for.

There are definite parallels between the Jesus story and other gods, but many of the parallels that you list are not supportable. The parallels with Krishna are particularly off. However, even Christians admit that Jesus was not born on Dec. 25, and that date was borrowed from pagan festivals celebrating the birth of Sol Invictus.

For a more respectable discussion of this topic, check out this thread: Book Review: Thompson, The Messiah Myth: The Near Eastern Roots of Jesus and David

You can find other threads on other of these topics; search this forum for Mithra, Luxor, or Osiris.

Zeichman

Especially given how there's no Biblical basis for dating Jesus' birth to December 25th, and I think almost any Christian scholar will admit that it was placed there to compete with the Sol Invictus and Mithratic cultic festivals. I've been to Acharya's web site and was totally unimpressed. Perhaps the book is better, but it isn't even argumentative. It's "hey, here's a whole bunch of information" and not looking at it systematically, or even objectively. Acharya's "sources" are almost always pre-Schweitzerian, and hardly taken seriously by modern scholars, from what I understand. Acharya also forgets that correlation/parallels does not necessitate causation. I have great respect for Earl Doherty (for defending what I believe to be almost indefensable), but none for Acharya S, who is the least scholarly of the self-professed scholars.

GakuseiDon

These descriptions of Krishna parallels are becoming more and more detailed. I would love to able to trace the development of this urban myth. Perhaps, in some way, it would shed light on how myths in general develop?

GakuseiDon

To be honest, having read Doherty's book, I don't see that much difference between the approach of Acharya and Doherty. The big difference (and this is much to his credit) is that Doherty works from primary sources and scholarly secondary sources. But other than that, they both build on speculation based on incomplete research, and display a paranoia towards mainstream research.

Mochan

I'm beginning to think that the starting of myths like this stems from:

1. An individual finds a cause, and for whatever reason, decides to champion it. The more controversial the cause, the better.
2. Begins to fabricate half-truths that hold up under casual scrutiny and begins professing strong controversial statements that make a little sense, and which cater to popular general sentiment.
3. These statements are then dispersed in non-scholary arenas where they take root among the less scrutinizing populace, and eventually spread and become urban legends.
4. These legends then become more pronounced as well-meaning but not too thorough people (as I myself might have been) take them more for granted and spread them in even more public forums (in contemporary terms, this would mean websites and bulletin board forums).

Given the popularity of secular bashing of established religions in this era, it's no surprise that the kind of statements I quoted above could easily take root and become myths.

The Krishna parallels were the ones that bothered me the most since they were the ones that seemed truly incredulous. I've seen some work on Mithras and Dionysus and some of the claims make some sense, but I haven't managed to validate any of the claims on Osiris and Horus. It's hard to do work like this on the internet where bibliography is often too much to ask for, but I do not have access to university libraries as I used to.

Chris Weimer

Osiris and Horus and Isis definitely had an effect on third and fourth century Christianity, and Dionysus probably had some impact, but Mithraism from Persia had no influence, instead being fused with Sol Invictus. Most likely Constantine held some sway with that. But largely, the Jesus myth seems grounded in some historical Judaism. Doherty's premise is that Paul started Christianity, and while he held considerable influence, it isn't discernable from his letters that he invented Christ. I also disagree with Doherty on Paul's take on a godhead Christ, which also doesn't seem to be too discernable from the text.

Toto

I think you mischaracterize Doherty. He engages with mainstream research without reservation. (Mainstream research does not return the favor, unfortunately.) And I challenge you to show that his research is "incomplete."

Toto

We have an Indian woman who posts here under as hinduwoman, who thought that the parallels with Krishna were first promulgated by Catholic missionaries to make the conversion of Hindus easier. Kersey Graves then unwittingly picked up the missionaries' fabrications. Unfortunately, she could not recall where she read this.