Freethought & Rationalism Archive

stephan huller · 09-02-2012, 03:45 PM

Let's just start with the idea that it is the Marcionite reading as witnessed by the Dialogues of Adamantius.

stephan huller · 09-02-2012, 03:46 PM

Clement and Methodius seem to cite the section (in full):

It is good for a man not to have contact with a woman, but to avoid πορνείας let each have his own wife to prevent Satan from tempting you because of your lack of self-control. [1 Cor 7.1;5]

stephan huller · 09-02-2012, 06:35 PM

I think I have confirmed (and explained) the reading from a section of Methodius (late third century) that seems to know and explain the reading here and in Ephesians:

Quote:

For man, having been composed, like water, of wisdom and life, has become identical with the very same untainted light which poured into him. Whence it was that the apostle directly referred to Christ the words which had been spoken of Adam. For thus will it be most certainly agreed that the Church is formed out of His bones and flesh; and it was for this cause that the Word, leaving His Father in heaven, came down to be joined to His wife; Ephesians 5:31 and slept in the trance of His passion, and willingly suffered death for her, that He might present the Church to Himself glorious and blameless, having cleansed her by the laver, Ephesians 5:26-27 for the receiving of the spiritual and blessed seed, which is sown by Him who with whispers implants it in the depths of the mind; and is conceived and formed by the Church, as by a woman. so as to give birth and nourishment to virtue. For in this way, too, the command, Increase and multiply, Genesis 1:18 is duly fulfilled, the Church increasing daily in greatness and beauty and multitude, by the union and communion of the Word who now still comes down to us and falls into a trance by the memorial of His passion; for otherwise the Church could not conceive believers, and give them new birth by the laver of regeneration (διὰ λουτροῦ παλιγγενεσίας Titus 3:5), unless Christ, emptying Himself for their sake, that He might be contained by them, as I said, through the recapitulation of His passion, should die again, coming down from heaven, and being joined to His wife, the Church, should provide being taken from His side, his own power (τῆς ἑαυτοῦ δύναμιν τινα), so that all who are built up in Him should grow up, even those who are born again by the laver, receiving of His bones and of His flesh, that is, of His holiness and of His glory. For he who says that the bones and flesh of Wisdom are understanding and virtue, says most rightly; and that the side is the Spirit of truth, the Paraclete, of whom the illuminated receiving are fitly born again to incorruption. For it is impossible for any one to be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, and to be chosen a member of Christ, unless the Word first came down upon him and fell into a trance, in order that he, being filled with the Spirit, and rising again from sleep with Him who was laid to sleep for his sake, should be able to receive renewal and restoration. For He may fitly be called the side of the Word, even the sevenfold Spirit of truth, according to the prophet; Isaiah 11:2 of whom God taking, in the trance of Christ, that is, after His incarnation and passion, prepares a help-meet for Him Genesis 2:18 — I mean the souls which are betrothed and given in marriage to Him. For it is frequently the case that the Scriptures thus call the assembly and mass of believers by the name of the Church, the more perfect in their progress being led up to be the one person and body of the Church. For those who are the better, and who embrace the truth more clearly, being delivered from the evils of the flesh, become, on account of their perfect purification and faith, a church and help-meet of Christ, betrothed and given in marriage to Him as a virgin, according to the apostle, 2 Corinthians 11:12 so that receiving the pure and genuine seed of His doctrine, they may co-operate with Him, helping in preaching for the salvation of others. And those who are still imperfect and beginning their lessons, are born to salvation, and shaped, as by mothers, by those who are more perfect, until they are brought forth and regenerated unto the greatness and beauty of virtue; and so these, in their turn making progress, having become a church, assist in labouring for the birth and nurture of other children, accomplishing in the receptacle of the soul, as in a womb, the blameless will of the Word. [Banquet 3:8]

Someone in the late second century changed the original reading from explaining that each initiate is married to 'his own power' at baptism to 'his own wife' which is our current reading AND WHICH MAKES NO SENSE. It is impossible to believe that the Marcionites, Valentinians and other ascetic heretics believed that Paul said that Jesus wanted them to get married. Bullshit. This also is the first step toward demonstrating that Paul knew and used 'secret Mark' (which is based on the idea of a marriage to Jesus).

stephan huller · 09-02-2012, 11:20 PM

If you think about what Methodius is saying it goes something like this - God joins men to himself who in turn are established to join with other men. People aren't standing in the water 'imagining' that Jesus is there with them 'in the spirit' - men are being fashioned as Christ the partner of other men.

andrewcriddle · 09-03-2012, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

Clement also says the name judas = power something which is not literally true

N.B. Clement here means by Judas Judah the son of Jacob not Judas the betrayer of Jesus.

Quote:

You may have also another image of what has been said, in Thamar sitting by the way, and presenting the appearance of a harlot, on whom the studious Judas (whose name is interpreted powerful), who left nothing unexamined and uninvestigated, looked; and turned aside to her, preserving his profession towards God.

Andrew Criddle

stephan huller · 09-03-2012, 12:16 PM

andrew means "manly" whether its andrew criddle or st andrew just as stephan always means perfect

sotto voce · 09-03-2012, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

st andrew

Oooh.

stephan huller · 09-03-2012, 02:18 PM

The question is simply why should the meaning of Judas be different from Judah for Clement.

Cesc · 09-04-2012, 05:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

andrew means "manly" whether its andrew criddle or st andrew just as stephan always means perfect

Doesn't Stephan mean "wreath" or "crown"?

sotto voce · 09-04-2012, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cesc

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

andrew means "manly" whether its andrew criddle or st andrew just as stephan always means perfect

Doesn't Stephan mean "wreath" or "crown"?

Only according to mere lexical authority. Whichever agent decides who among humans are saints must necessarily be divine, and therefore perfect. Lexicons are futile.

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09-02-2012, 03:45 PM	#11
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Let's just start with the idea that it is the Marcionite reading as witnessed by the Dialogues of Adamantius.

09-02-2012, 03:46 PM	#12
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Clement and Methodius seem to cite the section (in full): It is good for a man not to have contact with a woman, but to avoid πορνείας let each have his own wife to prevent Satan from tempting you because of your lack of self-control. [1 Cor 7.1;5]

09-02-2012, 11:20 PM	#14
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	If you think about what Methodius is saying it goes something like this - God joins men to himself who in turn are established to join with other men. People aren't standing in the water 'imagining' that Jesus is there with them 'in the spirit' - men are being fashioned as Christ the partner of other men.

09-03-2012, 12:16 PM	#16
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	andrew means "manly" whether its andrew criddle or st andrew just as stephan always means perfect

09-03-2012, 02:18 PM	#18
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	The question is simply why should the meaning of Judas be different from Judah for Clement.

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