Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Ratel · 08-18-2012, 11:11 AM

Right now I'm listening to Justin Brierly in a solo discussion with Bart Ehrman defending his book on Jesus mythicism. There is a lot of trashing (IMO) of Carrier and Price (At one point Bart says Price doesn't know what he's talking about re: Greek novels). I haven't finished it yet but I'm uneasy with how Bart is allowed to characterize these guys without them being able to defend themselves. Does anyone think Justin will have Price and Carrier on to defend themselves?

http://www.premierradio.org.uk/shows...elievable.aspx

dockeen · 08-18-2012, 11:17 AM

It is interesting to note Price's measured responses to Ehrman on his podcasts and in other venues. He seems legitimately shocked and dismayed at the tack that Ehrman has taken in his book at other scholars in the field.

Ratel · 08-18-2012, 11:29 AM

Bart sounds like William Lane Craig with some of his dying-rising god poo-pooing

outhouse · 08-18-2012, 11:42 AM

Price makes a pathetic argement really, he knows his stuff, but his compass is broken as he heads of in the wrong direction to the point of being lost.

Carrier is so noncommittal its pathetic, but i do enjoy his knowledge greatly

outhouse · 08-18-2012, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dockeen

It is interesting to note Price's measured responses to Ehrman on his podcasts and in other venues. He seems legitimately shocked and dismayed at the tack that Ehrman has taken in his book at other scholars in the field.

I really think Ehrman is just the voice we are hearing.

the majority of scholars would all scoff at Price if we could hear them.

Ratel · 08-18-2012, 11:46 AM

around minute 30
"When Bob wants to argue in the Greek novels we have instances, fictional instances of heroes getting crucified, I have no clue what he's talking about, and I think he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about."

I don't know enough about the subject matter to comment, but this really jumped out at me.

outhouse · 08-18-2012, 12:56 PM

we know for a fact they called roman mortal men "son of god" usually emporers but living humans none the less.

jesus mythology competes with these roman men as well, placing jesus in front of large crowds whch amounts to a impossibility for a peasant jew, who only traveled small Galilean villages teaching and healing for dinner scraps

Toto · 08-18-2012, 01:10 PM

Price on ancient Greek novels

Quote:

... In novel after novel we read of the heroine *emerging alive from the tomb*, as well as frequent accounts (though not quite so many) in which the hero *comes down alive from a cross*! Failing this, we still find remarkable scenes involving empty tombs thought to be occupied, crucifixions at the sites of tombs, filled or empty, or other variations on the theme.

...

In Miletus Callirhoe comes to believe that Chaereas perished while searching for her. To console her and to lay her fond memory of his rival to rest, Dionysius, her new husband, erects a tomb for Chaereas. It lacks his body, but this is not, as all think, because the corpse is irrecoverable, but rather in fact because he is still alive elsewhere. His tomb is empty because he is still alive. Why seek the living among the dead?

But elsewhere poor Chaereas is "imitating Christ" a bit too closely for his comfort, as he is condemned to the cross!

Without even seeing them or hearing their defense the master at once ordered the crucifixion of the sixteen men in the hut. They were brought out chained together at foot and neck, each carrying his cross.... Now Chaereas said nothing when he was led off with the others, but [his friend] Polycharmus, as he carried his cross, said: "Callirhoe, it is because of you that we are suffering like this!" (p. 67).

At the last minute Chaereas' sentence is commuted.

Mithridates sent everybody off to reach Chaereas before he died. They found the rest nailed up on their crosses; Chaereas was just ascending his. So the executioner checked his gesture, and Chaereas climbed down from his cross... (p. 69)

As he later recalls, "Mithridates at once ordered that I be taken down from the cross - I was practically finished by then." Here, then, is a hero who went to the cross for his beloved and returned alive. In the same story, a villain is likewise crucified, though gaining his just deserts, he is not reprieved. This is Theron, the pirate who carried poor Callirhoe into slavery. "He was crucified in front of Callirhoe's tomb" (p. 57). We find another instance of a crucifixion adjacent to the tomb of the righteous in *The Alexander Romance* when Alexander arrests the assassins of his worthy foe Darius. He commanded them "to be crucified at Darius's grave" (p. 703). We cannot help, any more than the ancient Christian reader could, being reminded of the location of Jesus burial "in the place where he was crucified" (John 19:41).

Let the reader decide who doesn't know what he is talking about.

Adam · 08-18-2012, 09:10 PM

I didn't see in your link to Price any dates for when the Greek novels were written. Are the similarities to Christianity pre-dating Jesus or not.

aa5874 · 08-19-2012, 12:43 AM

I am having serious problems with Bart Ehrman. He claims that he is not for or against Christians, Religion and Christiainity when he writes his books but yet claims the people whom he called "mythicists" are against Religion and Christianity.

Ehrman EXPOSED the abundance of Fraud and Fiction in the NT yet is terribly upset with people who have EXPOSED that the Jesus character is also FICTION.

This is most remarkable.

Bart Ehrman claims are UNACCEPTABLE.

Bart Ehrman himself DISCREDITS the NT but fails to understand that the Jesus character is also part of the DISCREDITED NT.

It is UNHEARD of that sources that are ADMITTEDLY NOT Credible are used by an "Historian" to re-construct the past.

08-18-2012, 11:11 AM	#1
Ratel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SD, USA Posts: 268	Bart Ehrman on "Unbelievable" discussing Jesus Mythicism (Moved from ABR) Right now I'm listening to Justin Brierly in a solo discussion with Bart Ehrman defending his book on Jesus mythicism. There is a lot of trashing (IMO) of Carrier and Price (At one point Bart says Price doesn't know what he's talking about re: Greek novels). I haven't finished it yet but I'm uneasy with how Bart is allowed to characterize these guys without them being able to defend themselves. Does anyone think Justin will have Price and Carrier on to defend themselves? http://www.premierradio.org.uk/shows...elievable.aspx

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08-18-2012, 11:17 AM	#2
dockeen Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Florida Panhandle Posts: 9,176	It is interesting to note Price's measured responses to Ehrman on his podcasts and in other venues. He seems legitimately shocked and dismayed at the tack that Ehrman has taken in his book at other scholars in the field.

08-18-2012, 11:29 AM	#3
Ratel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SD, USA Posts: 268	Bart sounds like William Lane Craig with some of his dying-rising god poo-pooing

08-18-2012, 11:42 AM	#4
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	Price makes a pathetic argement really, he knows his stuff, but his compass is broken as he heads of in the wrong direction to the point of being lost. Carrier is so noncommittal its pathetic, but i do enjoy his knowledge greatly

08-18-2012, 11:46 AM	#6
Ratel Regular Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: SD, USA Posts: 268	around minute 30 "When Bob wants to argue in the Greek novels we have instances, fictional instances of heroes getting crucified, I have no clue what he's talking about, and I think he doesn't have a clue what he's talking about." I don't know enough about the subject matter to comment, but this really jumped out at me.

08-18-2012, 12:56 PM	#7
outhouse Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Auburn ca Posts: 4,269	we know for a fact they called roman mortal men "son of god" usually emporers but living humans none the less. jesus mythology competes with these roman men as well, placing jesus in front of large crowds whch amounts to a impossibility for a peasant jew, who only traveled small Galilean villages teaching and healing for dinner scraps

08-18-2012, 09:10 PM	#9
Adam Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Dixon CA Posts: 1,150	I didn't see in your link to Price any dates for when the Greek novels were written. Are the similarities to Christianity pre-dating Jesus or not.

08-19-2012, 12:43 AM	#10
aa5874 Contributor Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: the fringe of the caribbean Posts: 18,988	I am having serious problems with Bart Ehrman. He claims that he is not for or against Christians, Religion and Christiainity when he writes his books but yet claims the people whom he called "mythicists" are against Religion and Christianity. Ehrman EXPOSED the abundance of Fraud and Fiction in the NT yet is terribly upset with people who have EXPOSED that the Jesus character is also FICTION. This is most remarkable. Bart Ehrman claims are UNACCEPTABLE. Bart Ehrman himself DISCREDITS the NT but fails to understand that the Jesus character is also part of the DISCREDITED NT. It is UNHEARD of that sources that are ADMITTEDLY NOT Credible are used by an "Historian" to re-construct the past.

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