Jane H

Immediately after my last post I went into town, and there was a group of teenage hoodies throwing exploding caps around. No-one challenged them because we’ve all read about what happens to people that do. An example of the threat of na’ar.

Can na’ar be translated as older children?

“…some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" (NIV)

“…young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, "Go up, you baldhead” (NASB)

“…some youths came from the city and mocked him, and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead!” (NKJV)

The link below is interesting; a Jewish perspective which is discussing the usage in other parts of the OT, and hence hasn’t a hint of apologetic:

http://ohr.edu/ask_db/ask_main.php/179/Q3/

Add to that the references in the OT I gave in post 27- and there are others.

Certainly na’ar can refer to doe eyed 7 year olds, but it can certainly refer to the teenage hoodies that have a certain notoriety in this country for knife crime.

Jane H

Was the bald issue teasing about premature baldness or about ritual head shaving? Remember this is a story.

Elisha had another 50 years to live. People do go bald at that point in their lives, but it is rare and unexpected. The writer has made no reference to it before, and no reference to it after. You would certainly expect some comment or even a story to set the scene; what you appear to have is a key feature that vanishes as soon as it appears.

On the other hand, Elijah has just died. The story teller has set that up. The writer assumes his audience knows all about ritual shaving for mourning, something which C21 readers need to remember. We must read the passage in its cultural context. Someone hearing about a bald-headed, recently bereaved young man in those times, would naturally assume the baldness was ritual mourning rather than hair loss; and certainly in the absence of comment on the unexpected on the part of the story teller.

Do we know that premature hair loss was a cause was a cause for teasing in that culture, or are we making cultural assumptions based on our own?

Jane H

Was he under threat? Well the number in that crowd must have been big if 42 were killed. They were hostile. Bethel had been established as a centre for the Golden Calf cult in 1 Kings by Jereboam. Elisha was an enemy of everything that the town stood for, and they would want to get rid of him. They wouldn’t have thought twice about killing him. The numbers imply the whole thing had been organised.

Notice in the OT quotes two posts above the phrase “Go on up”. It’s an odd way to say “Go away”, but a perfectly sensible way to say, “Go and join Elijah” (who the story teller has just said has left this life by ascending). Further, Elisha has just gone UP to Bethel (v23) and hence any move away from Bethel is down. The writer must be pointing the reader to interpret the youths jeering as referring to Elijah. (A further argument on the baldness issue).

The implication is clear- a very large crowd of young thugs were yelling at Elisha to join his friend Elijah in death. A massive swarming crowd of hoodies yelling, “F*** off and die like your mate!” sounds pretty dangerous to me. That’s the picture the writer is aiming to give the readers.

Once again, the message the writer is trying to get over is one that gets repeated over and again in both OT and NT. Overwhelming evil might threaten you, but God will deal with it in the end.

GakuseiDon

I'm sorry, but I simply don't see any difference between your attitude and that of the unapologetic apologist. The intent seems to be to put the Bible in a little box, where the Bible has to be either attacked or defended. Any question of what the original author was trying to convey gets thrown out and gets called "contrived", if it doesn't fit into your little box. Don't you see that your bias is blinding you as much as any rabid fundamentalist's? And that you are really just a mirror image, at least when it comes to the Bible?

I like the link that rfmwinnie offers just above. To repeat a passage from that:
Isn't that damn fascinating? I love all this stuff!

GakuseiDon

Spoiler alert: N/A

Solo

Are you saying the incident vindicates your reading of the Elisha bear story ?


On examining, not the deplorable hoodies in your neighbouhood, but the text of 2 Kings 2:23, you will find that na'ar in the text is qualified as qatan meaning small, immature, unimportant. The Septuagint sizes the dangerous assembly as paidaria micra, RSV as small boys and KJV as little children.

Jiri

spamandham

Jane, did you not notice that Elijah never died? He was taken up in a fiery chariot. Why would Elisha be mourning Elijah's death, considering that Elijah had never died?

Either that, or 42 is a symbolic number. This is a story after all.

The paragraph in question states nothing more than jeering, which is how it's been interpreted for thousands of years, until the Christian apologists had a go at it.

This is absurd. Bethel had been long subdued by the time of the story. Not to mention, Elisha had just been there having nice conversations with the prophets of Bethel just a few paragraphs earlier.

It's also a perfectly sensible way to refer to a location at a higher elevation than where you currently stand. ...an appropriate thing to say considering that the paragraph in question starts off with "From there Elisha went up to Bethel."

Toto

It sounds like you have gone off the deep end. There are people who come up with convoluted explanations and turn a group of kids into a gang of terrorist-minded juvenile delinquents to justify God sending bears to eat them. I think they are the ones who have put the Bible in a box where it must be defended. I think it would be obvious what the author intended if that intent were not so theologically incorrect to modern readers.

Obviously, modern Christians shrink from the idea that the Bible might glorify violent revenge. But how is this different from Jesus sending people to burn in a lake of fire for not following his rules?

haitu

The meaning to me is irrelevant. Whether it gives you hope or makes you believe in magic, it doesn't matter to me. What matters is your god showcasing his ability to be cruel and immoral. shame on him.


some christian posters believe parts are metaphorical. if you do not, ignore. stretching = saying certain parts are taken strictly metaphorical and others literally.
no. its horrible and the prose sucks. the first half is just down right disgusting.
bears kill 42 humans because they heckle. why do i need context? so i can find the meaning? pffft.

GakuseiDon

Sure, but is it just possible, that your bias drives you to an opposite extreme? That it stops you from rationally analyzing what is there, in favour of your own agenda? Is this not possible? Wouldn't it be better to examine the Elisha passage disinterestedly first? That's what Jane and I are doing. Your objection seems predicated on maintaining your outrage, rather than looking at the passage as just a story, and trying to work out what it meant to the people of the time.

Sure, no different, I agree! But... I can't imagine a scholarly dissertation on the Elisha passage suddenly throwing to Jesus sending people to Hell. Can you? Again, is this not an indication that your bias stops you from viewing the passage dispassionately?