Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mrunicycler · 09-23-2009, 03:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

The word of God is only for the educated

A curious claim indeed.

The numbers of atheists are so tiny that this claim also seems curious. It is likewise somewhat odd to make the claim that atheists are specially educated or intelligent purely because they object to the views of someone else.

Is there any evidence that atheists are no more educated than anyone else, after many years of encountering them. Nor would this be a surprise; after all, renouncing the views of our parents for motives of convenience is unlikely to promote education, and most likely to promote the collection of excuses.

In an age such as hours, the uneducated are more likely than anyone else to conform to societal values. It would be again curious to claim that these values are Christian.

Probably best to think more about these claims.

A large, vague claim. Since Christians use these versions indifferently, it seems like a misleading claim at best.

It is certainly possible to argue that every Christian must agree on every detail of teaching with every other one. Whether it is evidence of anything might be questioned, however.

The value of this comment is unclear to me. If the sky fell, we should all catch larks. And considering the resentment atheists feel on merely driving past a billboard talking about religion, the demand seems again a curious one.

Merely repeating stock atheist excuses does not exactly help the claim to be specially educated or intelligent made earlier.

I am wondering, at this point, what the connection of all this is with BC&H, tho. Should this thread be moved?

Lots of theological assertions in here; perhaps we could have some evidence that atheists are qualified to talk about God before proceeding, otherwise this is merely vituperation.

Quote:

Face it, God is either a lousy communicator, or He doesn't exist.

Neither seems to follow logically from any of this. I perhaps could comment that a grasp of logic is also not something for which atheists seem to be conspicuous, although admittedly you have not claimed it.

Atheism is merely a religious position. It is one held by very few people, and those who do hold it enjoy a dubious reputation among the rest. It would be best not to make exaggerated claims for it, therefore, surely?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

For someone who, in this very thread, has talked about the importance of finding answers for oneself, I'd think that you'd at least google information on education and atheism.

There are been several recent studies showing a strong correlation between the two. The better educational system a country has, the more likely its population is to be agnostic/atheistic. Likewise, the more education a person has, the more likely he/she is to be atheistic/agnostic.

Also, in America, the number of people describing themselves as 'without religion' is climbing to something approaching 20% (last I heard, it was in the teens). Hardly the tiny fraction you're claiming. In other 1st world countries, the number can be even higher.

I'll let you find those studies for yourself, since, as I've said, I know how much you like to find your own answers.

Joan of Bark · 09-23-2009, 04:04 AM

Oh boy, Roger, your rambling and often grammatically incorrect response to my points has left me scratching my head.

I'll just focus on a few of your points that I could actually understand:

Quote:

perhaps we could have some evidence that atheists are qualified to talk about God before proceeding, otherwise this is merely vituperation.

Most atheists on this board have been raised in a monotheistic environment. Just because we don't believe doesn't mean we can't know anything about God. Or would you like to argue also that believers can't know anything about atheism?

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Besides which, if God had transmitted the information directly to our brains, EVERY HUMAN BEING for the last two thousand years would know about His wonderful 'word'.

You say: The value of this comment is unclear to me.

I thought it was perfectly clear ...

Doesn't God want everyone to know of his word? If the answer is yes, then the Bible is an inefficient and clumsy method of getting it out to everyone, as evidenced by the fact that billions have died without ever reading or hearing of it.

If you disagree with my assumptions above, by all means, I want to hear them.

Joan of Bark · 09-23-2009, 04:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

The word of God is only for the educated

A curious claim indeed.

You left off the question mark. I was responding to Hymns assertation that Biblical translators didn't need to change words just for the uneducated. This is what I wrote:

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Modern copyists don't give a damn about uneducated people? The word of God is only for the educated (and are you aware that the better educated people are, the more likely they are to be skeptical?)?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

It is certainly possible to argue that every Christian must agree on every detail of teaching with every other one. Whether it is evidence of anything might be questioned, however.

It is evidence that the Bible is not clear, and therefore should be questioned on its authenticity as the 'word of God'.

Quote:

Face it, God is either a lousy communicator, or He doesn't exist.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Neither seems to follow logically from any of this. I perhaps could comment that a grasp of logic is also not something for which atheists seem to be conspicuous, although admittedly you have not claimed it.

Oh, yeah, all those illogical scientists ...

Religious people can be very logical ... except when it comes to God.

If God was a great communicator (and as a perfect being, you would think he would be), then Christians would all agree on His 'word'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

Atheism is merely a religious position. It is one held by very few people, and those who do hold it enjoy a dubious reputation among the rest.

If you travel a lot, as I do, you run into a LOT of skeptics. Besides, being in the minority does not make us wrong. Once upon a time those who believed the Earth was not the center of the universe held a dubious reputation with the vast majority who thought it was. Who won that battle?

mrunicycler · 09-23-2009, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joan of Bark

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

A curious claim indeed.

You left off the question mark. I was responding to Hymns assertation that Biblical translators didn't need to change words just for the uneducated. This is what I wrote:

...

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!

Roger, who in this very thread admonished me for editing out portions of a post and claimed that I misrepresented what was said (which I didn't do...at worst, I edited out bits that weren't important to make the post readable), has done that very thing??????

this is truly a LOL moment for me.

IBelieveInHymn · 09-23-2009, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sai

And all those christians CANT be wrong, because, heck, they all believe different things! What are there, 38,000 demoninations all with the one true path? No CHANCE of error!

It doesn't matter if there was 100,000 demoninations. The bottom line is they all believe in eternal life through Jesus Christ.

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That is how we know the Mus. are all wrong! Oh wait...too many of them.Its the CHINESE who are all wrong, um, or ...

I have never claimed any other religion is wrong. If you claim I did, can you supply the post?

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BTW, it is allegedly 1.6 billion Christians, not "billions". Stick to the truth, svp.

There is an estimated 2.2 billion Christians. Atheism does not even rank in the billions. Well, unless you include the people who said "Not Sure", "Non-religious" or "Skeptical." But either way, these categories do not fit atheism. I know of a few skeptics or non-religious people that do not want to be affiliated with atheism.

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And honestly hymn, you should try to get all this projecting you do under control! Consult Luke 6:42 and stop inventing faults that you imagine other people have. Its really tiresome and insulting. You should have enough to do working on your own errors.

Where have I invented a fault? And what error(s) are you talking about?

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Like your tendency to state "facts" (like the Euphrates is dry, billions of Christians) that are not true.

I do have the facts. And the Euphrates river is running dry. And there are 2.2 billion Christians in the world. Christianity covers approximately 32% of the world.

Source; www.adherents.com

Katastrophikus · 09-23-2009, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

There is an estimated 2.2 billion Christians. Atheism does not even rank in the billions.

It wouldn't. It isn't a religion.

Another way to look at it is, according to your numbers, there are 4 billion non-believers. When we look at muslims, there are 4.5 billion non-believers. And so on and so forth. We just happen to not believe in anyone of them.

semiopen · 09-23-2009, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Katastrophikus

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

There is an estimated 2.2 billion Christians. Atheism does not even rank in the billions.

It wouldn't. It isn't a religion.

Another way to look at it is, according to your numbers, there are 4 billion non-believers. When we look at muslims, there are 4.5 billion non-believers. And so on and so forth. We just happen to not believe in anyone of them.

Moreiver not all 2.2 billion (if that's the right number) actually believe the crap being referred to here.

Katastrophikus · 09-23-2009, 06:51 AM

Yeah, that's also very true. I also like the way that the number increases and decreases depending on whether or not the believer in the discussion wants to show how many Christians there are, or how few True Believers (tm) there are. It's beautiful to behold.

spamandham · 09-23-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

perhaps we could have some evidence that atheists are qualified to talk about God before proceeding, otherwise this is merely vituperation.

A fair enough demand, as long as it is simultaneously established that theists are qualified to talk about God.

semiopen · 09-23-2009, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by Roger Pearse

perhaps we could have some evidence that atheists are qualified to talk about God before proceeding, otherwise this is merely vituperation.

A fair enough demand, as long as it is simultaneously established that theists are qualified to talk about God.

Psychiatrists are qualified to talk about psychotics.

In court, we wouldn't call a psychotic as an expert witness to make a credible opinion that someone was insane.

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09-23-2009, 06:51 AM	#178
Katastrophikus Regular Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: PE, South Africa Posts: 499	Yeah, that's also very true. I also like the way that the number increases and decreases depending on whether or not the believer in the discussion wants to show how many Christians there are, or how few True Believers (tm) there are. It's beautiful to behold.

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