Freethought & Rationalism Archive

mountainman · 10-26-2010, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

You cited a section of Athanasius's attack against Arius pretending that it represented a citation of Arius's original work which was supposed to prove that Arius believed in the Gospel of Caesar or some other such nonsense that constantly spews from your fingertips. When I demonstrate that you cite material incorrectly from Athanasius, this suddenly seems like a minor affair - not even worth acknowledging. Instead you send me to some idiotic blog of someone who happens to espouse the same nonsense that you do.

So you are asserting that Athanasius is not citing Arius and I am asserting that Athanasius in fact is citing Arius. Surely there must be some other party opinions on this specific question, on this specific text?

I am open to be persuaded that you are correct, but right now I think that it is your assertion which is in error. I dont mind being proved wrong, if in fact I am wrong about my assertion.

What other resources can be brought to bear on sorting out the answer to this question? (ie: Is Athanasius actually citing Arius here?).

mountainman · 10-26-2010, 02:08 AM

Here is the reference in Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews - Book XIV, 12, 3, where Josephus is citing a letter purportedly written by Marcus Antonius which mentions and describes that upon the death of Julius Caesar "the sun turned away his light from us, as unwilling to view the horrid crime ..." . It may or may not be related to the citation out of Athanasius. And it does not necessarily tells us whether Athanasius if citing Arius or himself.

If the material is related in the reference under scrutiny and controversy here, then it is possible that someone - either Arius (if I am correct) or Athanasius himself (if you are correct) - appears to have used the same terms in this letter describing the "passion of Julius Caesar" to describe the "passion of Jesus".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antiquities of the Jews - Book XIV, 12, 3

3. "Marcus Antonius, imperator, to Hyrcanus the high priest and ethnarch of the Jews, sendeth greeting. It you be in health, it is well; I am also in health, with the army. Lysimachus, the son of Pausanias, and Josephus, the son of Menneus, and Alexander, the son of Theodorus, your ambassadors, met me at Ephesus, and have renewed the embassage which they had formerly been upon at Rome, and have diligently acquitted themselves of the present embassage, which thou and thy nation have intrusted to them, and have fully declared the goodwill thou hast for us. I am therefore satisfied, both by your actions and your words, that you are well-disposed to us; and I understand that your conduct of life is constant and religious: so I reckon upon you as our own.

But when those that were adversaries to you, and to the Roman people, abstained neither from cities nor temples, and did not observe the agreement they had confirmed by oath, it was not only on account of our contest with them, but on account of all mankind in common, that we have taken vengeance on those who have been the authors of great injustice towards men, and of great wickedness towards the gods; for the sake of which we suppose it was that the sun turned away his light from us, (23) as unwilling to view the horrid crime they were guilty of in the case of Caesar.

mountainman · 10-26-2010, 07:24 AM

It looks like stephan and Andrew Criddle might be right about this not being the case that Athanasius is quoting Arius. I wrote to the blogsite and got this reply:

Quote:

It's true that these are Athanasius' own words. He isn't quoting Arius, but Antony directly, so Huller is right, and this will be updated in a future revision.

So I guess that this quotation cannot be added to the extremely small number of quotations and citations that can be with reasonable safety be attributable to the fragments of the books of Arius of Alexandria. Thanks for correcting me on this issue stephan. I owe Andrew Criddle an apology also, who gave an earlier opinion, and of course toto.

But we are still left with Athanasius against Arius ........

"Who is there that hears all this, nay,
the tune of the Thalia, but must hate, and justly hate,
this Arius jesting on such matters as on a stage."

What is Athanasius doing quoting Antony's letter almost verbatim in this context? I guess he is trying to say that Arius is the most evil character on the face of the planet. Is this correct? Or am I missing something else? Is Athanasius therefore saying that even the sun with horror and impatience - over Arius's jests - would make the day of Arius sunless?

Quote:

Originally Posted by mountainman

Quote:

Originally Posted by stephan huller

You cited a section of Athanasius's attack against Arius pretending that it represented a citation of Arius's original work which was supposed to prove that Arius believed in the Gospel of Caesar or some other such nonsense that constantly spews from your fingertips. When I demonstrate that you cite material incorrectly from Athanasius, this suddenly seems like a minor affair - not even worth acknowledging. Instead you send me to some idiotic blog of someone who happens to espouse the same nonsense that you do.

So you are asserting that Athanasius is not citing Arius and I am asserting that Athanasius in fact is citing Arius. Surely there must be some other party opinions on this specific question, on this specific text?

I am open to be persuaded that you are correct, but right now I think that it is your assertion which is in error. I dont mind being proved wrong, if in fact I am wrong about my assertion.

What other resources can be brought to bear on sorting out the answer to this question? (ie: Is Athanasius actually citing Arius here?).

stephan huller · 10-26-2010, 07:50 AM

Happy times! Welcome to the world of scholarship where EVERYONE makes mistakes and implausible inferences. I continue to make my fair share. By admiting you made an error you actually prove yourself superior to many who will refuse to admit any fallibility. Congratulations. Welcome to being human.

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

10-26-2010, 07:50 AM	#24
stephan huller Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: seattle, wa Posts: 9,337	Happy times! Welcome to the world of scholarship where EVERYONE makes mistakes and implausible inferences. I continue to make my fair share. By admiting you made an error you actually prove yourself superior to many who will refuse to admit any fallibility. Congratulations. Welcome to being human.

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.