Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Steven Carr · 01-22-2013, 10:12 PM

Bart Ehrman claims nobody in a teaching position says that Jesus did not exist.

Is he right?

He is now!

Of course, if you say that Jesus existed, perhaps pointing to the fact that a story of him raising a child from the dead has some Aramaic words in it (Jesus spoke Aramaic, you know), you can get people to pay to read your blog.

maryhelena · 01-22-2013, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Pulpit Fiction

Quote:

A TOP priest has been forced to quit a Bible-teaching job after writing a book claiming Jesus did not exist.

Fr Tom Brodie makes the claim in Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus.

The publication sparked fury in his order and he was removed from his post at the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick, which he helped set up.

According to documents seen by the Irish Sun, the veteran scholar was also banned from any lecturing, teaching or writing while a probe is under way.

Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery (or via: amazon.co.uk)

Oh, no.....

But then again, I'm amazed how long he was able to stay in his job.....

So, it's Hans Kung all over again...

outhouse · 01-22-2013, 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

Pulpit Fiction

Quote:

A TOP priest has been forced to quit a Bible-teaching job after writing a book claiming Jesus did not exist.

Fr Tom Brodie makes the claim in Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus.

The publication sparked fury in his order and he was removed from his post at the Dominican Biblical Institute in Limerick, which he helped set up.

According to documents seen by the Irish Sun, the veteran scholar was also banned from any lecturing, teaching or writing while a probe is under way.

Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus: Memoir of a Discovery (or via: amazon.co.uk)

So far, he is following a better foundation to build a case for mythicism using Elijah and Elisha, instead of inventing some high in the sky mud pie, or some sun diety trying to reinvent the wheel, when the cart was already built.

like most mythers who fail, I hope he doesnt focus on theology and mythology to much staying in the gray areas, not focusing on cultural anthropology of the first century.

Chili · 01-23-2013, 06:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maryhelena

[Oh, no.....

But then again, I'm amazed how long he was able to stay in his job.....

So, it's Hans Kung all over again...

There is nothing new about that as priests are the same as Catholics in the pew who must find their own salvation via Romans 8:8-12. No recipes here, no imitations allowed.

In this, Hans Kung resigned with the belief that God and nature are one and we should all join together and sing about the beauty in nature we see, while failing to be one with nature ourself.

And so just another protestant he became. This guy at least calls it iconic and sacred to Catholics in they own right.

Clivedurdle · 01-23-2013, 07:51 AM

Quote:

The primary literary model behind the gospels, Brodie argues, is the biblical account of Elijah and Elisha, as R.E. Brown already saw in 1971

And Dake about 1900!

Sometimes it is worth reading the fundies!

Quote:

Long before the outward semblance of royalty had disappeared, God transferred his power and authority from the kings to the prophets. Out of the darkness of this evil time, two figures stand forth as His witnesses. They show us that through all the failure, God was quietly preparing for the appearance of His Son and the announcement of his eternal reign of righteousness. Elijah and Elisha remind us of John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus. Elijah the rugged prophet of the wilderness, clad in a garment of hair and with a leather belt around his waist (2 Kings 1:8), suddenly bursts into the court of Ahab, and pronounces God’s judgement:

“As the LORD, the God of Israel, lives, whom I serve, there will be neither dew nor rain in the next few years except at my word.” (1 Kings 17:1)

The secret of Elijah’s authority lay in those few words ”whom I serve.” He spoke the message of God fearlessly and faithfully. He reminds us of John the Baptist, similarly clothed, at the court of Herod, denouncing, just as fearlessly, the sins of that king too (Mark 6:17-18).

When his mission was complete, Elijah is commanded to anoint Elisha to be his successor (1 Kings 19:16). He is then taken into heaven, prefiguring the ascension of our Lord himself.

“As they were walking along and talking together, suddenly a chariot of fire and horses of fire appeared and separated the two of them, and Elijah went up to heaven in a whirlwind.”
(2 Kings 2:11)

Then, in the closing scenes of the Old Testament, Malachi prophesies that before the Day of Judgement, Elijah will return.

“See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes. He will turn the hearts of the parents to their children, and the hearts of the children to their parents; or else I will come and strike the land with total destruction.” (Malachi 4:5-6)

On the Mount of Transfiguration when Moses and Elijah meet with Jesus, the disciples are a little confused and disorientated,

“The disciples asked him, “Why then do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?” Jesus replied, “To be sure, Elijah comes and will restore all things. But I tell you, Elijah has already come, and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands.” Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.” (Matthew 17:10-13)

Elijah, a prophet to his generation, was then a prototype for John the Baptist who prepared people to meet Jesus. We have looked at the magnificence of Solomon and the message of Elijah.

3. The Miracles of Elisha

Elisha’s was a ministry of blessing and healing. In this he too is a type of Christ. When the Lord was about to take Elijah, Elisha insisted, “Let me inherit a double portion of your spirit,” (2 Kings 2:9). The blessing that Elisha craved was not to be twice as great, but to have the portion of the first-born son. The first-born son inherited a double portion of his father’s property. (Deuteronomy 21:17). Like Solomon acknowledging his need of the wisdom of God to succeed David, so Elisha accepted the prophetic office but asked for the power of the Spirit to fulfil it. Hodgkin says, “In this last scene, we sometimes almost wonder whether we are in the Old Testament or the New. We have an ascending master, a waiting disciple, a descending power.

“But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.” (Acts 1:8).

The power of God did indeed fall upon Elisha, so much so, that in several respects the miracles God performed through him are a prefigurement of the miracles Jesus performed.
If you have your Bible’s open, please turn with me to 2 Kings 4.

3.1 The Miracle of Multiplication

“The wife of a man from the company of the prophets cried out to Elisha, “Your servant my husband is dead, and you know that he revered the LORD. But now his creditor is coming to take my two boys as his slaves.” Elisha replied to her, “How can I help you? Tell me, what do you have in your house?” “Your servant has nothing there at all,” she said, “except a small jar of olive oil.” Elisha said, “Go around and ask all your neighbours for empty jars. Don’t ask for just a few. Then go inside and shut the door behind you and your sons. Pour oil into all the jars, and as each is filled, put it to one side.” She left him and shut the door behind her and her sons. They brought the jars to her and she kept pouring. When all the jars were full, she said to her son, “Bring me another one.” But he replied, “There is not a jar left.” Then the oil stopped flowing. She went and told the man of God, and he said, “Go, sell the oil and pay your debts. You and your sons can live on what is left.”
(2 Kings 4:1-7)

The miracle was in proportion to her faith. Elisha made her borrow and fill the vessels herself. He could have done it for her, but he wanted her to trust in God and experience his provision. This is similar to the way Jesus performed the miracle at the wedding banquet in John 2. The servants who drew the wine had poured the water and witnessed the miracle. Similarly Jesus had the disciples distribute the loaves and fishes to 4000 (Mark 8:1-10) and then the 5000 (Matthew 14:13-21) and then collect up the uneaten food. They had to work out the implications. The miracle of multiplication. In the next few verses we see also the miracle of procreation.

3.2 The Miracle of Procreation

One day Elisha went to Shunem. And a well-to-do woman was there, who urged him to stay for a meal. So whenever he came by, he stopped there to eat. She said to her husband, “I know that this man who often comes our way is a holy man of God. Let’s make a small room on the roof and put in it a bed and a table, a chair and a lamp for him. Then he can stay there whenever he comes to us.” One day when Elisha came, he went up to his room and lay down there. He said to his servant Gehazi, “Call the Shunammite.” So he called her, and she stood before him. Elisha said to him, “Tell her, ‘You have gone to all this trouble for us. Now what can be done for you? Can we speak on your behalf to the king or the commander of the army?’” She replied, “I have a home among my own people.” “What can be done for her?” Elisha asked. Gehazi said, “She has no son, and her husband is old.” Then Elisha said, “Call her.” So he called her, and she stood in the doorway. “About this time next year,” Elisha said, “you will hold a son in your arms.” “No, my lord!” she objected. “Please, man of God, don’t mislead your servant!” But the woman became pregnant, and the next year about that same time she gave birth to a son, just as Elisha had told her. (2 Kings 4:8-17)

The miracle of procreation. This lady provided accommodation for Elisha. When he asked his servant how he could return the favour Gehazi said, “She has no son, and her husband is old.” (2 Kings 4:14). Through the prophetic word, she becomes pregnant and gives birth to a son. The miracle of multiplication, the miracle of procreation.

3.3 The Miracle of Resurrection

Tragically, the little boy dies in her arms, probably from sun stroke. She lays him on Elisha’s bed and goes to find him. She will not leave Elisha until he returns with her.

“When Elisha reached the house, there was the boy lying dead on his couch. He went in, shut the door on the two of them and prayed to the LORD. Then he got on the bed and lay on the boy, mouth to mouth, eyes to eyes, hands to hands.

As he stretched himself out on him, the boy’s body grew warm. Elisha turned away and walked back and forth in the room and then got on the bed and stretched out on him once more. The boy sneezed seven times and opened his eyes. Elisha summoned Gehazi and said, “Call the Shunammite.” And he did. When she came, he said, “Take your son.” She came in, fell at his feet and bowed to the ground. Then she took her son and went out.” (2 Kings 4:32-37)

Something of an understatement! The miracles of Elisha authenticated his role as a prophet sent from God. The miracle of multiplication, the miracle of procreation and the miracle of resurrection. A forerunner to the miracles of the Lord Jesus.

http://www.stephensizer.com/2012/01/...ha-and-elijah/

The poor guy is only taking stuff to its logical conclusion!

Toto · 01-23-2013, 09:27 AM

Posts not related to Thomas Brodie have been split here

mountainman · 01-23-2013, 05:24 PM

"He who controls the past controls the future,
and he who controls the present controls the past".

Thought Police

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

The Thought Police (thinkpol in Newspeak) are the secret police of Oceania in George Orwell's dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four.

It is the job of the Thought Police to uncover and punish thoughtcrime and thought-criminals.

They use psychology and omnipresent surveillance (such as telescreens) to monitor, search, find and arrest members of society who could potentially challenge authority and status quo, even only by thought, hence the name Thought Police.[1] They use terror and torture to achieve their ends.

Thoughtcrime

Quote:

Originally Posted by WIKI

In the dystopian novel Nineteen Eighty-Four by George Orwell, thoughtcrime is the criminal act
of holding unspoken beliefs or doubts that oppose or question the ruling party.

In the book, the government attempts to control not only the speech and actions, but also the thoughts of its subjects.

To entertain unacceptable thought is known as to crimethink in Newspeak, the ideologically purified dialect of the party.

Minimalist · 01-23-2013, 06:10 PM

Quote:

A committee is now examining his work and will meet with Fr Brodie to discuss it.”

They don't call it The Inquisition anymore, do they?

Sheshbazzar · 01-23-2013, 06:27 PM

Wonder if they'll ask him to recant? they don't burn heretics at the stake anymore ....do they? I mean except in Africa.

Hope he's got the guts to stick with it. Could be a martyr to a whole new theological academic freedom. One can hope.

Chili · 01-23-2013, 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minimalist

Quote:

A committee is now examining his work and will meet with Fr Brodie to discuss it.”

They don't call it The Inquisition anymore, do they?

Then are all protestants trying to lynch him, on way or the other.

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01-22-2013, 10:12 PM	#11
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	Bart Ehrman claims nobody in a teaching position says that Jesus did not exist. Is he right? He is now! Of course, if you say that Jesus existed, perhaps pointing to the fact that a story of him raising a child from the dead has some Aramaic words in it (Jesus spoke Aramaic, you know), you can get people to pay to read your blog.

01-23-2013, 09:27 AM	#16
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Posts not related to Thomas Brodie have been split here

01-23-2013, 06:27 PM	#19
Sheshbazzar Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: On the path of knowledge Posts: 8,889	Wonder if they'll ask him to recant? they don't burn heretics at the stake anymore ....do they? I mean except in Africa. Hope he's got the guts to stick with it. Could be a martyr to a whole new theological academic freedom. One can hope.

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