Steven Carr

The Christian Cadre http://www.christiancadre.org have just linked to the following article :-

http://www.wushuathletic.com/~jason/christ/support.html


This says :-
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Gary Habermas, distinguished Professor and Chairman of the Department of Philosophy and Theology at Liberty University, sums this up as follows:

Overall, at least seventeen non-Christian writings record more than fifty details concerning the life, teachings, death, and resurrection of Jesus, plus details concerning the earliest church. Most frequently reported is Jesus’ death, mentioned by twelve sources. Dated approximately 20 to 150 years after Jesus’ death, these secular sources are quite early by the standards of ancient historiography.

Altogether, these non-Christian sources mention that Jesus fulfilled Old Testament prophecy, performed miracles, led disciples, and that many thought he was deity.

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Which are the 17 non-Christian writings from '20 to 150 years' after Jesus's death?

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The article continues later 'He goes on to explain that Jesus had died for our sins, was buried, raised again after three days and appeared to five hundred people, while noting that most of these people were still alive and, providing the names of a few of them.'

Load of old cobblers? Or Christian scholarship?

Toto

I have a request of you Brits and former colonials.

Exactly what does "load of old cobblers" mean? I gather it is some sort of insult, but I have no idea if it so vile that it would violate our rules. Help the mods out and translate those obscure phrases.

The other thread labeled "load of old cobblers" was so labeled by invitation.

As to this particular young apologist, I can't find that he has anything new to say. I found my eyes glazing over at the same tired arguments that have been refuted time and time again in The Jury Is In and elsewhere on these boards or in the II Library.

Habermas was so thoroughly skewered by Peter Kirby here that I wonder how anyone can cite him as an authority for anything.

But it is good of Stephen Carr to keep an eye on the Christian Cadre for us. I notice that they are referring their adherents here:

Christian Cadre Discussion Boards

Amaleq13

Only my DNA (75% anyway) comes from vicinity of the British Isles but I'm pretty sure it is no more offensive than "babbling morons".

Steven Carr

I thought we were allowed to call threads by offensive titles, judging by the thread titles which have appeared recently.

It is Cockney rhyming slang.

Cobbler's awls - balls.

A Cockney is a quaint Londoner, as immortalised by Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins.

I was rather taken aback by the claim that 1 Corinthians 15 said Jesus died 'for our sins'. Does Paul ever use that phrase?

GakuseiDon

Rhyming slang, meaning "complete nonsense or rubbish", usually referring to someone's assertions on a subject.

Roland

That's funny, most of the CHRISTIAN writers from that time period don't even mention much in the way of details concerning Jesus' life. I'm referring to Paul and the other epistle writers, Clement of Rome, Polybus, Papias, and the rest of the pre-Justin Martyr gang.

I'd much rather see these apologists explain that weird phenomenon and not worry so much about what the rest of the ancient world was saying about Jesus.

Amaleq13

Yep.

"for I delivered to you first, what also I did receive, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Writings," 1 Cor 15:3 (YLT)

He says basically the same thing in Gal 1:4 (Young's again) as well.

"who did give himself for our sins, that he might deliver us out of the present evil age, according to the will of God even our Father,"

The concept of Christ as an atoning sacrifice is found throughout Paul's letters. Are you sure you aren't thinking of Q? No atoning sacrifice there.

Sauron

This is Layman's circle of friends, isn't it?

Toto

From here I gather that the Cadre includes 47 individuals, including Layman, Metecrock, Bede, JPHolding, Bryan Cox (Ish or Haran), Roger Pearse, and some others that I do not recognize as participants here.

Steven Carr

My memory was playing tricks on me. I stand corrected. Thank you.

Now, I wonder what the seventeen non-Christian writings from 20 to 150 years after Jesus's death could be.

http://www.tektonics.org/remslist.html gives the usual reasons why Roman historians would never have mentioned Jesus, while Habermas says that there are lots of mentions of Jesus.

Holding writes :-

'Harris adds that "Roman writers could hardly be expected to have foreseen the subsequent influence of Christianity on the Roman Empire and therefore to have carefully documented" Christian origins.'

So where does Habermas get his seventeen non-Christian writings from?