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Old 10-02-2006, 07:44 PM   #11
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It must be said that Moses' punishment wasn't for killing the Egyptian, nor for leading wars of genocide against the various peoples of the Transjordan, but for whacking the rock in order to produce water instead of talking to it as he had been commanded. YHWH punishes for lack of perfect faith and imperfect following of commandments, not for killing for what YHWH considers a good cause.

David at least was punished for immoral behavior - stealing a man's wife and getting the man killed, although his racketeering in his younger years went without reprimand of any kind. And what was his punishment? The death of his infant son by said woman, as well as further family trouble resulting in the rape of a daughter by her half-brother, the death of 2 grown sons (maybe 3 if we also count Adoniah) and a temporary dethronement. Most of the price was paid by David's children.
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Old 10-02-2006, 09:39 PM   #12
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The failings of the Fathers were recorded that we that believe might know that they likewise were all fallible in their generations, yet that in spite of their often evident failures in judgment and in justice, Elohim yet chose them to be examples of His mercy- because- of their faults, that through them, all men everywhere, who know themselves to have faults, and likewise be unworthy, might likewise attain to a confident hope in a fully sufficient measure of His forgiveness and mercy.
Elohim loves and provides for all, yet only those who are the recipients of His forgiveness and mercy, receive His favor, becoming exempt from the condemnation that is upon all.
This "favor", IS accessible to ALL, even to "whomsoever will".
Your language seems really forced and artificial. It looks like you’re trying to imitate the bible or something. Is this the way everyone talks in Saint Johns, MI?

Here’s a thought: Why don’t you type like a normal human and tell us about the fiery coals?
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Originally Posted by 2 Samuel 22:9
Smoke ascended from his nose;
fire devoured as it came from his mouth;
he hurled down fiery coals.
Will Elohim hurl down fiery coals at his adversaries?

I think this is a fair question.

All the best,

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Old 10-03-2006, 01:38 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by Anat View Post
It must be said that Moses' punishment wasn't for killing the Egyptian, nor for leading wars of genocide against the various peoples of the Transjordan, but for whacking the rock in order to produce water instead of talking to it as he had been commanded. YHWH punishes for lack of perfect faith and imperfect following of commandments, not for killing for what YHWH considers a good cause.

David at least was punished for immoral behavior - stealing a man's wife and getting the man killed, although his racketeering in his younger years went without reprimand of any kind. And what was his punishment? The death of his infant son by said woman, as well as further family trouble resulting in the rape of a daughter by her half-brother, the death of 2 grown sons (maybe 3 if we also count Adoniah) and a temporary dethronement. Most of the price was paid by David's children.
Very good point. The blood-thirsty Yahweh have no problem with people being murderers and killers. But poor you if you dare smack a rock instead of chatting with it! Now, THAT sends you right to capital punishment - death is btw the only form of punishment Yahweh appear to know about. If people objected or questioned or pondered anything they died. Unquestioning followers who obey Yahweh's smallest whim such as killing and murdering all the boys, men and women in a village while keeping the girls as playtoys for the murdering soldiers is what Yahweh wants!

How someone can manage to call such a god "good" is beyond my comprehension.

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Old 10-05-2006, 10:59 AM   #14
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Opposition to the good promises is that which alienates The Adversary, and all adversaries from YHWH Elohim, whom is always ready to extend His mercy and favor to "whosoever will", even as many as are willing to accept it.
It is "Satan", The Adversary and his children that are resisting any reconciliation.
If "Satan" or any other "adversary" is excepted, it is only by their own rebellion and refusal of the offer.
IOW the situation would be inherently 'dynamic'. Any time that the Adversary decides it might to its advantage to bow down to Adam and descendents the situation would change. Right?
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:11 AM   #15
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How is David a vile person in the Bible?
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Old 10-05-2006, 11:37 AM   #16
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How is David a vile person in the Bible?
One of his daughters thought it was 'vile' that he danced down the streets of Jerusalem more or less naked during his victory parade.
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Old 10-05-2006, 06:20 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by Sheshbazzar View Post
Speaking as a Believer, this is my (our) take on this matter.
Part of the overall Scriptural lesson and theme, Is that if a person is unworthy, and willingly admits to being unworthy, and seeks YHWH's forgiveness for those all too human failings, then that "unworthy" person is fully forgiven and pardoned of all those things for which they would otherwise receive a just condemnation.
"Perfect" men have no need of forgiveness, and indeed cannot receive forgiveness, because having admitted to no faults, there is nothing requested to be forgiven.
Thus forgiveness and mercy is only for them who know themselves as being among the imperfect and unworthy.
The failings of the Fathers were recorded that we that believe might know that they likewise were all fallible in their generations, yet that in spite of their often evident failures in judgment and in justice, Elohim yet chose them to be examples of His mercy- because- of their faults, that through them, all men everywhere, who know themselves to have faults, and likewise be unworthy, might likewise attain to a confident hope in a fully sufficient measure of His forgiveness and mercy.
Elohim loves and provides for all, yet only those who are the recipients of His forgiveness and mercy, receive His favor, becoming exempt from the condemnation that is upon all.
This "favor", IS accessible to ALL, even to "whomsoever will".
Nothing you have written makes sense. A person cannot prove he is forgiven. A person cannot prove that a supernatural being can hear. If I say I am a sinner and shout at the top of my voice for God to save me, nothing will happen. I will have to believe that something happened. That is called delusion or self-deception.

It is futile making up stories about that which you have no knowledge. Faith in God is an illogical thought process, and demands no factual basis.
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Old 10-05-2006, 08:49 PM   #18
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Don't forget Lot & his daughters. After they fled from Sodom & Gomorrah and his wife turned to salt, the daughters got daddy drunk, seduced him, then had his inbred children. Gawd loves inbred incestors!
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:08 PM   #19
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I am a bit confused as to whether God either liked or disliked Methuselah. After all, he lived longer than anyone else in history, but was apparently not good enough to survive the flood, and if the timeliines of Genesis are correct, it was entirely likely that he drowned in the flood.

I mean, he was Noah's Grandfather, and the son of Enoch, who was so all fired pure that God just zapped Enoch up to heaven! But naahhh, Noah did not even think about saving Grandpa.

So, God thought enough of him for him to live 39 years longer than anybody else ever, but then went, naahhh, he aint worthy, and drowned him. And, of course, Noah did the same thing.

Norm
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Old 10-05-2006, 09:27 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aguy2
One of his daughters thought it was 'vile' that he danced down the streets of Jerusalem more or less naked during his victory parade.
It was Michal, David's first wife, King Saul's daughter. As one of the first two Jewish princesses ever she had higher standards for her man. For her criticism she was cursed with childlessness (or maybe David just stayed away from her, he had plenty of other wives anyway).
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