Freethought & Rationalism Archive

JoeWallack · 06-15-2008, 10:40 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:

Correspondent: Gary Goldberg

Link:
New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.

The next best evidence I've seen is from super Skeptic, Paul Tobin (the Tobinator):

The Burial

Quote:

That Joseph of Arimathea was not known to early Christendom outside this passage proves not the reality of the passage but the non-existence of the protagonist!

If he did not exist, the next question would be where Mark got his story (and the name) from. There is a very likely candidate for this. As the Jewish scholar, Hugh Schonfield [8], pointed out, the story of Joseph of Arimathea in the gospels resembles very closely an episode from Josephus' Autobiography. In it, Josephus relates his own experience upon seeing his friends on the cross:

Once more when I was sent by Titus Caesar...to a village called Tekoa to prospect whether it was a suitable camp, and, on my return, saw many prisoners who had been crucified, and recognized three of my acquaintances among them, I was cut to the heart, and came and told Titus with tears what I have seen. He gave orders immediately that they should be taken down and receive the most careful treatment. Two of them died in the physician's hands, the third survived. [9]
One can immediately see that the above passage closely parallels the Markan account. First there were three victims of crucifixion that played a role in Josephus' story just like in the gospels where Jesus was crucified together with two robbers. Just as Josephus went to the Roman commander to beg for his friends' lives, Joseph of Arimathea went to the Roman governor to asked for Jesus' body. And just as Jesus was resurrected where the other two died, in Josephus' story one of his three acquaintances survived. [10]

The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:

It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]

JW:
I have Faith that even "Mark's" Jesus would be sore Amazed at the amazing parallels between Josephus' experience with friends crucified and "Mark's" Joseph's experience with a friend crucified.

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

JoeWallack · 06-17-2008, 06:03 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:

Correspondent: Gary Goldberg

Link:
New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.

4) "Mark's" Joseph apo Arimathias asks for and receives one of three crucified, who recovers. Josephus apo Matthias asks for and receives three crucified one of which recovers:

Correspondent: Paul Tobin

Link: The Burial

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:

It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]

The next best evidence I've seen is once again from yours truly:

Mark "I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM? - The Mark's Brothers

Quote:

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_6:3

Quote:

Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary, and brother of James, and Joses, and Judas, and Simon? and are not his sisters here with us? And they were offended in him.

...

Another ReMarkable parallel is that all the Brother names here can be found in a familyiar Josephus story:

Antiquities of the Jews 20.102

Quote:

"CONCERNING THEUDAS AND THE SONS OF JUDAS THE GALILEAN; AS ALSO WHAT CALAMITY FELL UPON THE JEWS ON THE DAY OF THE PASSOVER.

[97] NOW it came to pass, while Fadus was procurator of Judea, that a certain magician, whose name was Theudas, 1 persuaded a great part of the people to take their effects with them, and follow him to the river Jordan; for he told them he was a prophet, and that he would, by his own command, divide the river, and afford them an easy passage over it; and many were deluded by his words. However, Fadus did not permit them to make any advantage of his wild attempt, but sent a troop of horsemen out against them; who, falling upon them unexpectedly, slew many of them, and took many of them alive. They also took Theudas alive, and cut off his head, and carried it to Jerusalem. This was what befell the Jews in the time of Cuspius Fadus's government.

[100] Then came Tiberius Alexander as successor to Fadus; he was the son of Alexander the alabarch of Alexandria, which Alexander was a principal person among all his contemporaries, both for his family and wealth: he was also more eminent for his piety than this his son Alexander, for he did not continue in the religion of his country. Under these procurators that great famine happened in Judea, in which queen Helena bought corn in Egypt at a great expense, and distributed it to those that were in want, as I have related already. And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon], whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor. And now it was that Cumanus came as successor to Tiberius Alexander; as also that Herod, brother of Agrippa the great king, departed this life, in the eighth year of the reign of Claudius Caesar. He left behind him three sons; Aristobulus, whom he had by his first wife, with Bernicianus, and Hyrcanus, both whom he had by Bernice his brother's daughter. But Claudius Caesar bestowed his dominions on Agrippa, junior.

[105] Now while the Jewish affairs were under the administration of Cureanus, there happened a great tumult at the city of Jerusalem, and many of the Jews perished therein. But I shall first explain the occasion whence it was derived. When that feast which is called the passover was at hand, at which time our custom is to use unleavened bread, and a great multitude was gathered together from all parts to that feast, Cumanus was afraid lest some attempt of innovation should then be made by them; so he ordered that one regiment of the army should take their arms, and stand in the temple cloisters, to repress any attempts of innovation, if perchance any such should begin; and this was no more than what the former procurators of Judea did at such festivals. But on the fourth day of the feast, a certain soldier let down his breeches, and exposed his privy members to the multitude,"

JW:
I have Faith that even "Mark's" Jesus would be sore Amazed at the amazing parallels between Josephus' names of sons above and "Mark's" Jesus' brothers.

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

JoeWallack · 06-18-2008, 06:36 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:

Correspondent: Gary Goldberg

Link: New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.

4) "Mark's" Joseph apo Arimathias asks for and receives three crucified, one of which recovers. Josephus apo Matthias asks for and receives one of three crucified who recovers:

Correspondent: Paul Tobin

Link: The Burial

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:

It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]

5) "Mark's" Jesus' brothers are James, Joses, Judas and Simon. Josephus' Judas the Galilean's sons were James and Simon, (crucified) and Joseph was the High Priest (removed).:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Mark "I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM? - The Mark's Brothers

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon], whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor.

The next best evidence I've seen is Indirect and comes from Legendary Skeptic Richard Carrier:

Luke and Josephus

Quote:

There has long been the observation that Luke-Acts contains numerous parallels with the works of Josephus, generating three different theories to account for this: that Josephus used Luke, that Luke used Josephus, or that they both used some common but now lost source. Steve Mason has reviewed the arguments [1] and in summarizing the evidence concludes that, besides generic parallels of genre and form and the use of identical historical events, which are inconclusive as proofs, the "coincidence ... of aim, themes, and vocabulary ... seems to suggest that Luke-Acts is building its case on the foundation of Josephus' defense of Judaism," and therefore that Luke is consciously and significantly drawing on Josephus to supplement his use of Mark and Q and to create the appearance of a real history, a notable deviation from all the other Gospels which have none of the features of a historical work.
...
# The same three rebel leaders: Judas the Galilean--even specifically connected with the census (Acts 5:37; JW 2.117-8, JA 18.1-8); Theudas (Acts 5:36; JA 20.97); and "The Egyptian" (Acts 21:38; JW 2.261-3, JA 20.171).

It seems quite a remarkable coincidence that Luke should even mention these men at all (no other Christian author does), and that he names only three rebel leaders, and that all three are the very same men named by Josephus--even though Josephus says there were numerous such men (JW 2.259-264; JA 20.160-9, 20.188) and he only singled out these three especially for particular reasons of his own. In fact, to use only the rather generic nick-name "The Egyptian," instead of, or without, an actual name of any kind (there were millions of Egyptians, and certainly thousands in Judaea at any given time), though explicable as an affectation of one author, seems a little strange when two authors repeat the same idiom.

It also makes sense for Luke to draw these three men from Josephus: since Josephus was writing for a Roman audience, if the Romans knew any Jewish rebels, it would be these three men. Just as Josephus named them as examples of what good Jews are not, Luke names them specifically as examples of what the Christians are not--and as the latter two were specifically painted by Josephus as religious figures, messianic prophets, similar to Jesus, it would have behooved Luke to disassociate Jesus with these men, recently popularized to Romans by Josephus as villains. Similarly with Judas, who was a military rebel, very much the opposite of Jesus, the peaceful religious reformer. Notice, for example, how Luke greatly downplays Jesus' use of violence in clearing the temple, and emphasizes in its place his role as teacher: compare Luke 19:45-8 with Mark 11:15-8, Matthew 21:12-6, and John 2:13-6.
...
Conclusion

Luke almost certainly knew and drew upon the works of Josephus (or else an amazing series of coincidences remains in want of an explanation), and therefore Luke and Acts were written at the end of the 1st century, or perhaps the beginning of the 2nd. This also results in the realization that almost every famous person, institution, place or event mentioned in L that can be checked against other sources is also found in Josephus, so that efforts to prove the veracity of L by appealing to these checks is cut short by the fact that he appears to have gotten all this information from Josephus, and simply cut-and-pasted it into his own "history" in order to give his story an air of authenticity and realism. He could thus, for all we know, have been writing historical fiction--using real characters and places, and putting them in fictional situations, all dressed up as history--history with a message, and an apologetic purpose. We thus cannot really know what in L is true or false with regard to the origins of Christianity or the actions of early Christians, since these particular details are the most prone to manipulation for didactic, symbolic, politico-ecclesiastical and apologetic reasons, and have very little if any external corroboration (and no external corroboration from a non-Christian).

JW:
I have Faith that even "Mark's" Jesus would be sore Amazed at the amazing parallels between Josephus' History and Luke's Jesus' history. And if "Luke" used Josephus' real history to create real fake Jesus' history, this is evidence that fellow Evangelist "Mark" did "Lukewise".

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

JoeWallack · 06-21-2008, 09:07 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:

Correspondent: Gary Goldberg

Link: New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.

4) "Mark's" Joseph apo Arimathias asks for and receives three crucified, one of which recovers. Josephus apo Matthias asks for and receives one of three crucified who recovers:

Correspondent: Paul Tobin

Link: The Burial

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:

It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]

5) "Mark's" Jesus' brothers are James, Joses, Judas and Simon. Josephus' Judas the Galilean's sons were James and Simon, (crucified) and Joseph was the High Priest (removed).:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Mark "I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM? - The Mark's Brothers

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon], whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor.

6) "Mark's" Evangelist brother "Luke" clearly used Josephus as a source.

Correspondent: Richard Carrier

Link: Luke and Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

# The same three rebel leaders: Judas the Galilean--even specifically connected with the census (Acts 5:37; JW 2.117-8, JA 18.1-8); Theudas (Acts 5:36; JA 20.97); and "The Egyptian" (Acts 21:38; JW 2.261-3, JA 20.171).

It seems quite a remarkable coincidence that Luke should even mention these men at all (no other Christian author does), and that he names only three rebel leaders, and that all three are the very same men named by Josephus--even though Josephus says there were numerous such men (JW 2.259-264; JA 20.160-9, 20.188) and he only singled out these three especially for particular reasons of his own. In fact, to use only the rather generic nick-name "The Egyptian," instead of, or without, an actual name of any kind (there were millions of Egyptians, and certainly thousands in Judaea at any given time), though explicable as an affectation of one author, seems a little strange when two authors repeat the same idiom.

The next best evidence I've seen is also Indirect and comes from non-Legendary Skeptic JoeWallack:

The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.

Quote:

Continuing with the Evidence concerning 1st vs. 2nd century Dating of the Canonical Gospels:

External:

1) Extant fragments of Gospel text

2nd century Direct evidence

Key evidence:

1) Earliest fragment is P52 mid-range date of c. 165

2) No other fragment with mid-range in 2nd century.

2) Church Father References

2nd century Direct evidence

Key evidence:

1) Irenaeus c. 180

Familiar with all 4 Canonical Gospels

2nd century Indirect evidence

2) Justin Martyr c. 155

Familiar with Synoptics

No evidence of "The Simontic Problem"

3) The Epistula Apostolorum c. 145

One paragraph on the Passion Narrative

No evidence of "The Simontic Problem"

4) 2 Clement c. 145

One sentence on the Passion Narrative

No evidence of "The Simontic Problem"

5) Marcion c. 135

Consists of a version of "Luke" Narrative but gives No Attribution

Evidence of "The Simontic Problem"

No Infancy Narrative

6) ARISTIDES c. 125

One sentence referring to Jesus' Death and one sentence referring to Jesus' Resurrection. No direct quotes from any Canonical Gospel.

7) Papias c. 125

Aware of written Sayings of Jesus by Peter/"Mark" and "Matthew"

No Evidence of "The Passion"

No Evidence of "The Simontic
Problem"

No Evidence of Infancy Narrative

No Evidence of Paul

...
We may be creating an Intersection here for the creation of "Mark". Papias testifies that c. 125 he is not aware of any written Gospel Narrative and this is Confirmed by Eusebius who Reviews all available Church writings looking for the earliest evidence for the Canonical Gospels. Clement c. 110 shows the first evidence of an increasing Church hierarchy. Thus, the Motivation for "Mark" to write an anti-hierarchal Gospel exists starting c. 110. The earliest reference to use of a Canonical Gospel is Marcion c. 135. This suggests a dating range for "Mark" of 110 - 135.

JW:
The External evidence indicates "Mark" is early second century and at this time Josephus would have been the recent and authoritative source for the history of the background to "Mark's" story.

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

JoeWallack · 02-23-2009, 06:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DCHindley

Interesting, that. When the Parthians invaded during the power struggles between Antigonus and Hyrcanus, and reinstalled Antigonus as High Priest, didn't Antigonus cut off Hyrcanus' ears to prevent him from being reinstalled by popular revolt after the Parthians left? Who is this "servent" (literally, doulon "slave") of the HP? That would be a deliberate act to keep someone from officiating as a priest, a political act. "Slave" cannot but a put-down of someone, as no slave would be officiating as a priest. And why would Jesus' disciples be using swords to achieve a political goal?

DCH

Antiquities of the Jews 14:365-366 365 And thus was Antigonus brought back into Judea by the king of the Parthians [and reinstalled in his office], and received [from the Parthians] Hyrcanus and Phasaelus for his prisoners ... 366 but being afraid that Hyrcanus, who was [still at that point] under the guard of the Parthians, might have his kingdom restored to him by the multitude [once the Parthians left], he cut off his [i.e., Hyrcanus'] ears, and thereby took care that the high priesthood should never come to him any more, because he was maimed, while the law required that this dignity should belong to none but such as had all their members entire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deus Ex

Mark 14:47 And one of them that stood by drew a sword, and smote a servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.

There you have it. Jesus was leading a group of armed zealots.

JW:
Vehhy interesting:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...hus/ant14.html

Quote:

10. And thus was Antigonus brought back into Judea by the king of the Parthians, and received Hyrcanus and Phasaelus for his prisoners; but he was greatly cast down because the women had escaped, whom he intended to have given the enemy, as having promised they should have them, with the money, for their reward: but being afraid that Hyrcanus, who was under the guard of the Parthians, might have his kingdom restored to him by the multitude, he cut off his ears, and thereby took care that the high priesthood should never come to him any more, because he was maimed, while the law required that this dignity should belong to none but such as had all their members entire

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Mark_14

Quote:

Mark 14:47 But a certain one of them that stood by drew his sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear.

Josephus

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

JoeWallack · 09-03-2009, 07:39 AM

JW:
The purpose of this Thread will be to Inventory evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a Source.

Inventory so far:

1) "Mark's" Jesus predicts the destruction of the Temple. So does Josephus' Jesus:

Correspondent: Neal Godfree

Link: http://members.dodo.com.au/~neilgodfrey/2jesus.htm

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Hereupon our rulers, supposing, as the case proved to be, that this was a sort of divine fury in the man, brought him to the Roman procurator, where he was whipped till his bones were laid bare; yet he did not make any supplication for himself, nor shed any tears, but turning his voice to the most lamentable tone possible, at every stroke of the whip his answer was, "Woe, woe to Jerusalem!" And when Albinus (for he was then our procurator) asked him, Who he was? and whence he came? and why he uttered such words? he made no manner of reply to what he said, but still did not leave off his melancholy ditty, till Albinus took him to be a madman, and dismissed him.

2) "Mark's" Jesus has a Mission to conquer Jerusalem and destroy the Temple. So does Josephus' Romans:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Jewrassic Pork. Evidence (More) Of Fiction In The Original Gospel

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Note the following reMarkable common words/ideas with the Historical Roman campaign:

1) Gerasa - An especially noteworthy town as it was built by Rome, was populated mainly by Gentiles, was temporarily controlled by the Jewish rebels and was an important conquest on the way to Jerusalem. Also, a major rebel leader, Simon, was from Gerasa.

2) Legion - This name for the Demon is especially telling as it is also the primary name for units of Roman soldiers.

3) Pigs - Using pigs is telling as this would be the primary animal Jews associated with Gentiles. Also, one of the conquering Legions had a Boar as it's standard.

4) Two thousand - This is close to a casualty figure from the Historical Gadara conquest (twenty-two hundred).

5) Drowned - In the Historical Gadara campaign the most horrific method of suffering and execution was drowning.

3) "Mark's" Jesus advises not to cheat on your taxes. So does Josephus:

Correspondent: Gary Goldberg

Link: New Testament Parallels to the Works of Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Comment
It was seen above that an important part of the political background in Jesus' time was the Fourth Philosophy of Judas the Galilean. In the present passage is the clearest indication that Jesus was seen by some of his contemporaries as involved with that group. The originating tenet of the Fourth Philosophy was that one should not pay taxes to Rome, as this was interpreted as a turning away from God. When the people in the cited passage ask Jesus if it is "lawful to pay taxes to the Emperor, or not," they are referring to the Fourth Philosophy's reading of the Law of Moses. The questioners, even if they were hostile to them, can't be seen as setting a devious trap -- they were trying to pin Jesus' philosophy down by asking him his opinion on the central question of the times.

4) "Mark's" Joseph apo Arimathias asks for and receives three crucified, one of which recovers. Josephus apo Matthias asks for and receives one of three crucified who recovers:

Correspondent: Paul Tobin

Link: The Burial

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

The similarity in the names of the main protagonist is also considerable. In the same work, Josephus elucidated his distinguished ancestry. His grandfather, also named Joseph, begot Matthias his father in the tenth year of the reign of Archelaus (AD6). In the Greek text (the language Josephus wrote in) Joseph begot Matthias is rendered as Josepou Matthias. In Mark's gospel, Joseph of Arimathea is written in Greek as Joseph apo Arimathias, the similarity is curious. To quote Schonfield:

It is certainly curious that we have Josephus, himself a Josepou Matthias, begging the Roman commander for the bodies of three crucified friends, one of whom is brought back to life. [11]

5) "Mark's" Jesus' brothers are James, Joses, Judas and Simon. Josephus' Judas the Galilean's sons were James and Simon, (crucified) and Joseph was the High Priest (removed).:

Correspondent: JoeWallack

Link: Mark "I Am IronyMan". How Much Ironic Contrast, Transfer and Reversal Did He kraM? - The Mark's Brothers

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

And besides this, the sons of Judas of Galilee were now slain; I mean of that Judas who caused the people to revolt, when Cyrenius came to take an account of the estates of the Jews, as we have showed in a foregoing book. The names of those sons were James and Simon], whom Alexander commanded to be crucified. But now Herod, king of Chalcis, removed Joseph, the son of Camydus, from the high priesthood, and made Ananias, the son of Nebedeu, his successor.

6) "Mark's" Evangelist brother "Luke" clearly used Josephus as a source.

Correspondent: Richard Carrier

Link: Luke and Josephus

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

# The same three rebel leaders: Judas the Galilean--even specifically connected with the census (Acts 5:37; JW 2.117-8, JA 18.1-8); Theudas (Acts 5:36; JA 20.97); and "The Egyptian" (Acts 21:38; JW 2.261-3, JA 20.171).

It seems quite a remarkable coincidence that Luke should even mention these men at all (no other Christian author does), and that he names only three rebel leaders, and that all three are the very same men named by Josephus--even though Josephus says there were numerous such men (JW 2.259-264; JA 20.160-9, 20.188) and he only singled out these three especially for particular reasons of his own. In fact, to use only the rather generic nick-name "The Egyptian," instead of, or without, an actual name of any kind (there were millions of Egyptians, and certainly thousands in Judaea at any given time), though explicable as an affectation of one author, seems a little strange when two authors repeat the same idiom.

7) The External evidence indicates "Mark" is early second century and at this time Josephus would have been the recent and authoritative source for the history of the background to "Mark's" story.

Correspondent: Joe Wallack

Link: The Papias Smear, Changes in sell Structure. Evidence for an Original Second Century Gospel.

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

7) Papias c. 125

Aware of written Sayings of Jesus by Peter/"Mark" and "Matthew"

No Evidence of "The Passion"

No Evidence of "The Simontic
Problem"

No Evidence of Infancy Narrative

No Evidence of Paul

...
We may be creating an Intersection here for the creation of "Mark". Papias testifies that c. 125 he is not aware of any written Gospel Narrative and this is Confirmed by Eusebius who Reviews all available Church writings looking for the earliest evidence for the Canonical Gospels. Clement c. 110 shows the first evidence of an increasing Church hierarchy. Thus, the Motivation for "Mark" to write an anti-hierarchal Gospel exists starting c. 110. The earliest reference to use of a Canonical Gospel is Marcion c. 135. This suggests a dating range for "Mark" of 110 - 135.

8) Josephus' Hyrcanus has his ear cut off to disqualify him from the High Priesthood. "Mark's" servant of the High Priest has his ear cut off trying to disqualify Jesus from the High Priesthood

Correspondent: Dave Hindley

Link: http://www.freeratio.org/showpost.ph...3&postcount=15

Smoking gun excerpt:

Quote:

Antiquities of the Jews 14:365-366 365 And thus was Antigonus brought back into Judea by the king of the Parthians [and reinstalled in his office], and received [from the Parthians] Hyrcanus and Phasaelus for his prisoners ... 366 but being afraid that Hyrcanus, who was [still at that point] under the guard of the Parthians, might have his kingdom restored to him by the multitude [once the Parthians left], he cut off his [i.e., Hyrcanus'] ears, and thereby took care that the high priesthood should never come to him any more, because he was maimed, while the law required that this dignity should belong to none but such as had all their members entire.

...

Quote:

Mark 14:47 But a certain one of them that stood by drew his sword, and smote the servant of the high priest, and struck off his ear.

And listen to this (storming sidelines like John Madden during a Super bowl), Josephus says the cause of the destruction of Jerusalem was the High Priest and Jesus. "Mark" says the cause of the destruction of Jerusalem was the High Priest and Jesus:

http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/t...phus/war4.html

Quote:

2. But the rage of the Idumeans was not satiated by these slaughters; but they now betook themselves to the city, and plundered every house, and slew every one they met; and for the other multitude, they esteemed it needless to go on with killing them, but they sought for the high priests, and the generality went with the greatest zeal against them; and as soon as they caught them they slew them, and then standing upon their dead bodies, in way of jest, upbraided Ananus with his kindness to the people, and Jesus with his speech made to them from the wall. Nay, they proceeded to that degree of impiety, as to cast away their dead bodies without burial, although the Jews used to take so much care of the burial of men, that they took down those that were condemned and crucified, and buried them before the going down of the sun. I should not mistake if I said that the death of Ananus was the beginning of the destruction of the city, and that from this very day may be dated the overthrow of her wall, and the ruin of her affairs, whereon they saw their high priest, and the procurer of their preservation, slain in the midst of their city. He was on other accounts also a venerable, and a very just man; and besides the grandeur of that nobility, and dignity, and honor of which he was possessed, he had been a lover of a kind of parity, even with regard to the meanest of the people; he was a prodigious lover of liberty, and an admirer of a democracy in government; and did ever prefer the public welfare before his own advantage, and preferred peace above all things; for he was thoroughly sensible that the Romans were not to be conquered. He also foresaw that of necessity a war would follow, and that unless the Jews made up matters with them very dexterously, they would be destroyed; to say all in a word, if Ananus had survived, they had certainly compounded matters; for he was a shrewd man in speaking and persuading the people, and had already gotten the mastery of those that opposed his designs, or were for the war. And the Jews had then put abundance of delays in the way of the Romans, if they had had such a general as he was. Jesus was also joined with him; and although he was inferior to him upon the comparison, he was superior to the rest; and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness. And this at last was the end of Ananus and Jesus.

As my ancestor Caiphas used to say, "what more evidence do we need" (that "Mark" used Josephus). Thus we have it on good authority that Josephus was a major source for "Mark" and that "Mark" is securely dated to 2nd century.

Josephus

HISTORIAN, n.
A broad-gauge gossip.

OutSourcing Paul, A Contract Labor of Love Another's(Writings). Paul as Markan Source

JoeWallack · 11-26-2009, 08:55 AM

JW:
I recently posted what follows in another Thread:

What if Jesus got a fair trial?

but I think it is most applicable here as the best evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a source:

The comparison that follows is from Super Skeptic Neil Godfree @:

http://vridar.info/xorigins/josephus/2jesus.htm

"Mark"	Josephus

Primary subject of story is named Jesus	Primary subject of the story is named Jesus (son of Ananias) [Jewish War, 6, 300]

Jesus is an artisan (Greek 'teknon', or translated 'carpenter'). (The artisan class ranked below peasants) [6:3]	Jesus is described as a low class unskilled rustic peasant [J.W.6:301]

Jerusalem leaders believe Jesus is demon possessed [3:22]	Jerusalem leaders believe Jesus is demon possessed [J.W.6, 301]

Some people thought Jesus was out of his mind [3:21ff]	Some thought Jesus was a maniac [J.W.6,305]

Jesus was at times teaching daily in the Temple [14:49]	Jesus was daily in the Temple repeating his message [J.W.6,306]

In the Temple during time of a holy festival (Passover) [14:2]	In the Temple during the time of a holy festival (Tabernacles) [J.W.6,301]

Jesus cites Jeremiah 7:11 (LXX, speaking against defilement of Temple) (conflated with Isa.56:7) to denounce practices in the Temple [11:17]	Jesus cites Jeremiah 7:34 (speaking against the people of Judah and Jerusalem) in his harangue against Jerusalem, the Temple and the people. [J.W.6, 301]

Declares Woes on the people of Jerusalem/Judea [13:17]	Declares Woes on the people of Jerusalem/Judea [J.W.6,304,306,309]

Pronounces doom on the Temple [13:2]	Pronounces doom on the Temple [J.W.6,300,309]

Arrested by the Jerusalem leaders [14:43]	Arrested by the Jerusalem leaders [J.W.6,302]

Accused of speaking against the Temple [14:58]	Accused of speaking against the Temple [J.W.6,302]

Made no defence for himself in face of these charges of speaking against the Temple [14:60f]	Made no defence for himself in face of these charges of speaking against the Temple [J.W.6,302]

Physically abused at the Jewish hearing [14:65]	Physically abused at the Jewish hearing [J.W.6,302]

Following Jewish hearing the Jerusalem authorities delivered him to the Roman procurator (Pilate) [15:1]	Following Jewish hearing the Jerusalem authorities delivered him to the Roman procurator (Albinus) [J.W.6,302f]

Interrogated by the governor (Pilate) in the Roman hearing [15:2-4]	Interrogated by the governor (Albinus) in the Roman hearing [J.W.6,305]

During their Roman interrogation the governor asks him to disclose his identity [15:2]	During their Roman interrogation the governor asks him to disclose his identity [J.W.6,305]

He is silent before governor [15:3-5]	He is silent before governor [J.W.6,305]

The procurator moved to release Jesus (but failed) [15:6-15]	The procurator moved to release Jesus (successfully) [J.W.6,305]

Jesus was scourged at end of his Roman hearing [15:15]	Jesus was scourged at end of his Roman hearing [J.W.6,304]

Killed by Roman soldiers [15:16,20-24]	Killed by Roman soldiers (although unluckily by chance) [J.W.6,308-9]

Uttered a personal woeful cry just before his death [15:34]	Uttered a personal woeful cry just before his death [J.W.6,309]

Died with a loud cry [15:27]	Died with a loud cry [J.W.6,309]

Mark uses the word "naos" for Temple in the contexts of the charge against Jesus that he spoke against the Temple [14:58; 15:29; and the vindication of Jesus' dismissal of the Temple in 15:38]. Elsewhere Mark always uses "hieros" for the Temple [11:11,15,16,27; 12:35; 13:1,3; 14:49]	Josephus uses the word "naos" for Temple in the account of his Jesus' declarations against it. [J.W.6,301,309]

While I think the comparisons in the table are somewhat overstated, if you apply proper criteria for parallels, similarity in language, scope, similarity in context, consistency and sequence, it's likely that Josephus is "Mark's" source here.

Josephus

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

DCHindley · 11-26-2009, 10:11 AM

Joe,

This has been noticed before, there having been a discussion about it, I believe, on the Crosstalk2 or Ioudaios discussion list some years ago.

Got go to, T-giving at my sister's an hour away ...

DCH

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoeWallack

JW:
I recently posted what follows in another Thread:

What if Jesus got a fair trial?

but I think it is most applicable here as the best evidence that "Mark" used Josephus as a source:

The comparison that follows is from Super Skeptic Neil Godfree @:

http://vridar.info/xorigins/josephus/2jesus.htm

"Mark"	Josephus

Primary subject of story is named Jesus	Primary subject of the story is named Jesus (son of Ananias) [Jewish War, 6, 300]

Jesus is an artisan (Greek 'teknon', or translated 'carpenter'). (The artisan class ranked below peasants) [6:3]	Jesus is described as a low class unskilled rustic peasant [J.W.6:301]

Jerusalem leaders believe Jesus is demon possessed [3:22]	Jerusalem leaders believe Jesus is demon possessed [J.W.6, 301]

Some people thought Jesus was out of his mind [3:21ff]	Some thought Jesus was a maniac [J.W.6,305]

Jesus was at times teaching daily in the Temple [14:49]	Jesus was daily in the Temple repeating his message [J.W.6,306]

In the Temple during time of a holy festival (Passover) [14:2]	In the Temple during the time of a holy festival (Tabernacles) [J.W.6,301]

Jesus cites Jeremiah 7:11 (LXX, speaking against defilement of Temple) (conflated with Isa.56:7) to denounce practices in the Temple [11:17]	Jesus cites Jeremiah 7:34 (speaking against the people of Judah and Jerusalem) in his harangue against Jerusalem, the Temple and the people. [J.W.6, 301]

Declares Woes on the people of Jerusalem/Judea [13:17]	Declares Woes on the people of Jerusalem/Judea [J.W.6,304,306,309]

Pronounces doom on the Temple [13:2]	Pronounces doom on the Temple [J.W.6,300,309]

Arrested by the Jerusalem leaders [14:43]	Arrested by the Jerusalem leaders [J.W.6,302]

Accused of speaking against the Temple [14:58]	Accused of speaking against the Temple [J.W.6,302]

Made no defence for himself in face of these charges of speaking against the Temple [14:60f]	Made no defence for himself in face of these charges of speaking against the Temple [J.W.6,302]

Physically abused at the Jewish hearing [14:65]	Physically abused at the Jewish hearing [J.W.6,302]

Following Jewish hearing the Jerusalem authorities delivered him to the Roman procurator (Pilate) [15:1]	Following Jewish hearing the Jerusalem authorities delivered him to the Roman procurator (Albinus) [J.W.6,302f]

Interrogated by the governor (Pilate) in the Roman hearing [15:2-4]	Interrogated by the governor (Albinus) in the Roman hearing [J.W.6,305]

During their Roman interrogation the governor asks him to disclose his identity [15:2]	During their Roman interrogation the governor asks him to disclose his identity [J.W.6,305]

He is silent before governor [15:3-5]	He is silent before governor [J.W.6,305]

The procurator moved to release Jesus (but failed) [15:6-15]	The procurator moved to release Jesus (successfully) [J.W.6,305]

Jesus was scourged at end of his Roman hearing [15:15]	Jesus was scourged at end of his Roman hearing [J.W.6,304]

Killed by Roman soldiers [15:16,20-24]	Killed by Roman soldiers (although unluckily by chance) [J.W.6,308-9]

Uttered a personal woeful cry just before his death [15:34]	Uttered a personal woeful cry just before his death [J.W.6,309]

Died with a loud cry [15:27]	Died with a loud cry [J.W.6,309]

Mark uses the word "naos" for Temple in the contexts of the charge against Jesus that he spoke against the Temple [14:58; 15:29; and the vindication of Jesus' dismissal of the Temple in 15:38]. Elsewhere Mark always uses "hieros" for the Temple [11:11,15,16,27; 12:35; 13:1,3; 14:49]	Josephus uses the word "naos" for Temple in the account of his Jesus' declarations against it. [J.W.6,301,309]

While I think the comparisons in the table are somewhat overstated, if you apply proper criteria for parallels, similarity in language, scope, similarity in context, consistency and sequence, it's likely that Josephus is "Mark's" source here.

Josephus

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Main_Page

yalla · 11-27-2009, 06:44 AM

Joe, one of the gospels [g"Luke"?] has the story of JC as a young fella wowing the priests in the temple ['in the house of my father"] about his prodigious knowledge of the sacred texts whilst mum and dad[?] are looking for him everywhere.
The other Joe, Josephus, apparently has a very similar and rather immodest story staring himself.
I'm not home at the moment and don't have any books or notes with me, not even a bible, can you imagine that, so sorry about the vagueness of what may be a rather long bow.

yalla · 11-27-2009, 07:00 AM

Here it is found by the back door.

Lk 2:42
And when he was twelve years old, they went up as usual for the festival [of Passover]....After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Josephus' Life 1.2 8 (speculative)
I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law.

http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm#Twelve

You may find that site interesting, unless you know about it already.

Ah right, its 'Mark' you're interested in, sorry, ignore the above.

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11-27-2009, 06:44 AM	#19
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Joe, one of the gospels [g"Luke"?] has the story of JC as a young fella wowing the priests in the temple ['in the house of my father"] about his prodigious knowledge of the sacred texts whilst mum and dad[?] are looking for him everywhere. The other Joe, Josephus, apparently has a very similar and rather immodest story staring himself. I'm not home at the moment and don't have any books or notes with me, not even a bible, can you imagine that, so sorry about the vagueness of what may be a rather long bow.

11-27-2009, 07:00 AM	#20
yalla Veteran Member Join Date: May 2002 Location: oz Posts: 1,848	Here it is found by the back door. Lk 2:42 And when he was twelve years old, they went up as usual for the festival [of Passover]....After three days they found him in the temple, sitting among the teachers, listening to them and asking them questions. And all who heard him were amazed at his understanding and his answers. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Josephus' Life 1.2 8 (speculative) I made mighty proficiency in the improvements of my learning, and appeared to have both a great memory and understanding. Moreover, when I was a child, and about fourteen years of age, I was commended by all for the love I had to learning; on which account the high priests and principal men of the city came then frequently to me together, in order to know my opinion about the accurate understanding of points of the law. http://www.josephus.org/ntparallels.htm#Twelve You may find that site interesting, unless you know about it already. Ah right, its 'Mark' you're interested in, sorry, ignore the above.

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