Freethought & Rationalism Archive

TheUnbeliever · 07-21-2008, 10:21 AM

So I've read the Bible a couple of times, and suffice it to say I consider having done so the best antidote for religious belief. There are, however, a few very interesting passages, and this one from Proverbs is an example:

Proverbs 30:4—"Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you know?" (Attributed to Agur, son of Jakeh, from the NKJV given to me by dear old Duke.)

It seems to me that this passage is referencing god, and therefore referencing the notion of a "son of god" (Jesus, as most Christians would have us believe). This verse is from the OT, though, so my question is: how can this really be referring to Jesus?

Here are some possibilities I came up with (in decreasing order of likelihood, in my opinion), but if there are any biblical scholars who actually know, please tell me. Anyway:

1. This verse originally did and still does refer to another notion of god's "son(s)," i.e. the children of Israel.

2. This verse originally referred to the above, but was changed by early church fathers to seem to refer only to Jesus.

3. The entire verse is an insertion by church fathers several hundred years after the fact.

4. OMG IT IS JESUS I TOLD U LOL

Thoughts?

gstafleu · 07-21-2008, 10:32 AM

Perhaps if you look at the context:

Quote:

2 Surely I am more stupid than any man,
And do not have the understanding of a man.
3 I neither learned wisdom
Nor have knowledge of the Holy One.
4 Who has ascended into heaven, or descended?
Who has gathered the wind in His fists?
Who has bound the waters in a garment?
Who has established all the ends of the earth?
What is His name, and what is His Son’s name,
If you know?
5 Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.

It looks to me as if v4 just tries to say that no human being can know god. Thus the "his" and "son" in 4e just refer to a human, to wit the human who has not done the things above, and whose name, nor the name of his son, you can therefore give. The "His" and "Son" are then erroneously (and Christianly) capitalized in the translation (NKJV).

Gerard Stafleu

TheUnbeliever · 07-21-2008, 10:36 AM

Gotcha. So in a nutshell, 30:4 is asking, "who has done all these mega sweet things? No human, that's for sure"?

Mageth · 07-21-2008, 11:32 AM

Yeah, that's my take on it from a plain text reading. It's a rhetorical "Who" that's being addressed, not God.

TheUnbeliever · 07-21-2008, 12:06 PM

If I were to let this go now, it would quite possibly be one of the shortest-lived threads ever at IIDB, and certainly one of the few that actually ends in something resembling conclusiveness. My next question, then, is this: how do you respond to Christians who insist this is referring to the G-Unit and JC, especially considering the (likely erroneous) capitalization of the pronoun "he" in texts like the NKJV? (I mean, I would point out to these people that there are no capital letters in Hebrew, but I have the feeling that won't make much of a difference.)

Toto · 07-21-2008, 12:20 PM

Apostolic (anti-Trinitarian) commentary

Quote:

Seeing that these rhetorical questions were asked immediately after highlighting man's ignorance in lieu of God's wisdom, the expected answer is negative, "Not man!" What man has ascended or descended into heaven? There is no man, thus highlighting man's insignificance in light of the Holy One. Who has gathered the wind in his fists? There is no man, again highlighting man's insignificance in light of the Holy One. The same can be said of wrapping up the waters in one's cloak and establishing the ends of the earth. There is no man who can do such, only God. Only after this series of rhetorical questions does the author ask his readers to tell him who has done these things. The author is not asking what divine being has done these things, but what man has done these things. Essentially he was asking, "If you know a man who has done these things, tell me his name and the name of his son." (The whole idea of giving the name of the individual and the name of his son serves to identify the man who did these things. It must be remembered that in Biblical times people did not have last names to distinguish themselves from others with the same name. To name one's son was a further mark of identification, clarifying which individual is being named.) Obviously no man did these things, thus neither he nor his son could be identified. Seeing that no man could be identified (and thus no man's son) it demonstrated that only God could do these things, and man was nothing in comparison to Him. That was precisely the point the author was trying to stress to his readers. No man can do what God can do. He is so much greater than we are.

This seems so simplistic that I am surprised Trinitarians continue to use this verse to support their theology. This is just another example of Trinitarians scraping at anything in order to find Biblical support for the Trinity. Trinitarians have made such a big deal over this verse because they found something in the OT that mentions the Son, which they do not find anywhere else (to their embarrassment), so they ignore the context to champion their Trinitarian theory when in all reality this passage has nothing to do with God's identity. Some Trinitarians, such as the translators of the NET Bible, are honest enough to say that this passage may only "hint ... of the nature of the Messiah as Son, a hint that will be revealed in full through the incarnation. . .

Orthodox Judaism

Quote:

Who ascended to heaven and descended? Who gathered wind in his fists? Who wrapped the waters in a garment? Who established all the ends of the earth? What is his name and what is the name of his son, if you know?

ASCENDED AND DESCENDED TO HEAVEN - that was Moses on Mt. Sinai - there was nobody like him - who was like Moses? - asks this part of the verse. So not God (where would he ascend from? Does that mean he was on Earth before his ascending?), not Jesus (where would he descend from? That would preclude him being born from a woman as Christian Bible states) - but Moses, which is quite clear here.

WHO WRAPPED THE WATERS?(Ex. 15:8): “The depths were congealed” ; (ad loc.): “The floods stood upright like a heap,” through Moses’s prayer.

WHO ESTABLISHED – the Tabernacle, - Moses again, who directed the construction of the Ark of the Covenant, through establishment of which all the ends of the earth were fully established, for we have received an opportunity to become grounded in our knowledge and communication with the Almighty.

WHAT IS HIS NAME AND WHAT IS THE NAME OF HIS SON? - What is his name and what is the name of his son - If you say that there already was one like him, tell me what his son’s name is; i.e., what family is descended from him, and we will know who he is if you know who he is.

Net/net: one cannot rely on his own wisdom because that's boorish and presumptious - there was none like Moses to whom G-d spoke directly.

* * *

the word “son” isn’t capitalized in Hebrew. It is capitalized only in those English translations which deliberately attempt to mislead you into reading Jesus into the Hebrew Bible. There is no Jesus in this part of the Hebrew scriptures, or in any other part.

Which comes down to - is God the author of

a) the Bible?
b) confusion?
c) other?

TheUnbeliever · 07-21-2008, 12:34 PM

Fantastic, Toto. Thanks for the help!

gstafleu · 07-22-2008, 11:14 AM

So we have the Christians reading Christ into this passage, and the Mosians (Jews) reading Moses into it. Vanitas vanitatum...

Gerard Stafleu

thentian · 07-22-2008, 12:48 PM

Interesting!

But what is meant by "all the ends of the earth" here? Is this an indication that the author believed the earth was flat?

andrewcriddle · 07-22-2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by thentian

Interesting!

But what is meant by "all the ends of the earth" here? Is this an indication that the author believed the earth was flat?

The author may well have regarded the earth as flat.
However it would IMO be unwise to take a poetical statement about the limitations of human knowledge as evidence about the author's geographical beliefs.

Andrew Criddle

07-21-2008, 10:21 AM	#1
TheUnbeliever Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: United States Posts: 84	Who is Proverbs 30:4 Talking About? So I've read the Bible a couple of times, and suffice it to say I consider having done so the best antidote for religious belief. There are, however, a few very interesting passages, and this one from Proverbs is an example: Proverbs 30:4—"Who has ascended into heaven, or descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in a garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if you know?" (Attributed to Agur, son of Jakeh, from the NKJV given to me by dear old Duke.) It seems to me that this passage is referencing god, and therefore referencing the notion of a "son of god" (Jesus, as most Christians would have us believe). This verse is from the OT, though, so my question is: how can this really be referring to Jesus? Here are some possibilities I came up with (in decreasing order of likelihood, in my opinion), but if there are any biblical scholars who actually know, please tell me. Anyway: 1. This verse originally did and still does refer to another notion of god's "son(s)," i.e. the children of Israel. 2. This verse originally referred to the above, but was changed by early church fathers to seem to refer only to Jesus. 3. The entire verse is an insertion by church fathers several hundred years after the fact. 4. OMG IT IS JESUS I TOLD U LOL Thoughts?

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07-21-2008, 10:36 AM	#3
TheUnbeliever Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: United States Posts: 84	Gotcha. So in a nutshell, 30:4 is asking, "who has done all these mega sweet things? No human, that's for sure"?

07-21-2008, 11:32 AM	#4
Mageth Contributor Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: Deep in the heart of mother-lovin' Texas Posts: 29,689	Yeah, that's my take on it from a plain text reading. It's a rhetorical "Who" that's being addressed, not God.

07-21-2008, 12:06 PM	#5
TheUnbeliever Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: United States Posts: 84	If I were to let this go now, it would quite possibly be one of the shortest-lived threads ever at IIDB, and certainly one of the few that actually ends in something resembling conclusiveness. My next question, then, is this: how do you respond to Christians who insist this is referring to the G-Unit and JC, especially considering the (likely erroneous) capitalization of the pronoun "he" in texts like the NKJV? (I mean, I would point out to these people that there are no capital letters in Hebrew, but I have the feeling that won't make much of a difference.)

07-21-2008, 12:34 PM	#7
TheUnbeliever Junior Member Join Date: May 2003 Location: United States Posts: 84	Fantastic, Toto. Thanks for the help!

07-22-2008, 11:14 AM	#8
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	So we have the Christians reading Christ into this passage, and the Mosians (Jews) reading Moses into it. Vanitas vanitatum... Gerard Stafleu

07-22-2008, 12:48 PM	#9
thentian Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Norway Posts: 694	Interesting! But what is meant by "all the ends of the earth" here? Is this an indication that the author believed the earth was flat?

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