Freethought & Rationalism Archive

IBelieveInHymn · 09-25-2009, 09:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymouser

Quote:

Originally Posted by bacht

The messages to the seven churches in the introduction imply that the end is near, not 2000 years later.

Because you have kept my word of patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial which is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell upon the earth. I am coming soon; hold fast what you have, so that no one may seize your crown.

Rev 3.10-11

Well, yes, Jesus also says that the parousia is imminent:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Matt 24:34 NASB.

This is not ambiguous, and the contortions that apologists go into to make Jesus's false prophecy (for the generation that would have heard him is long dead, their bones turned to dust) not false are laughable. Jesus told his hearers that the coming of the Son of Man in glory would be during their lifetimes. He was wrong.

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

Dark Virtue · 09-25-2009, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymouser

Well, yes, Jesus also says that the parousia is imminent:

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." Matt 24:34 NASB.

This is not ambiguous, and the contortions that apologists go into to make Jesus's false prophecy (for the generation that would have heard him is long dead, their bones turned to dust) not false are laughable. Jesus told his hearers that the coming of the Son of Man in glory would be during their lifetimes. He was wrong.

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

You MIGHT have the beginnings of an argument if you didn't consider the context in which the verse was taken from.

In context, it doesn't make sense.

spamandham · 09-25-2009, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

In context, is there any reason to think Jesus is referring to the Jewish race rather than his contemporary generation, or are you simply trying to provide your god with an 'out' for his clearly failed prophecy?

show_no_mercy · 09-25-2009, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spamandham

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

In context, is there any reason to think Jesus is referring to the Jewish race rather than his contemporary generation, or are you simply trying to provide your god with an 'out' for his clearly failed prophecy?

Jesus uses the same prophecy speaking directly to the High Priest in Mark 14:62. It is an obvious failed prophecy since the High Priest did not see the Son of Man descending from the clouds at the right hand of "Power".

graymouser · 09-25-2009, 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

So...γενεα (genea, the word you are disputing) is used 13 times in Matthew. 1:17, 11:16, 12:39, 12:41, 12:42, 12:45, 16:4, 17:17, 23:26, and 24:34. There is quite a bit of γενεα in the Gospel, and it is on a theme - Jesus is condemning "this generation," an "evil and adulterous generation." The Gospel started out using γενεα precisely to describe the generations of Christ, it hits the same point in 8 successive verses, and hammers it home with the prophecy of the parousia coming before "this generation" passes away. This is a clear literary construction that builds up γενεα and then climaxes with the prophecy being directed at "this generation." Yet you think that in the final use - and only the final use - of γενεα it has a separate sense that is nowhere else in the Synoptics. (The others of course have parallel constructions. It's more elaborate in both Matthew and Luke than in Mark.) Why it switches is for no reason other than theological convenience - it's an ad hoc apologetic technique that even millenial Christians are having to back away from out of sheer embarrassment. No translation of any theological bent that I'm aware of uses your "nation" gloss for γενεα.

badger3k · 09-25-2009, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymouser

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

So...γενεα (genea, the word you are disputing) is used 13 times in Matthew. 1:17, 11:16, 12:39, 12:41, 12:42, 12:45, 16:4, 17:17, 23:26, and 24:34. There is quite a bit of γενεα in the Gospel, and it is on a theme - Jesus is condemning "this generation," an "evil and adulterous generation." The Gospel started out using γενεα precisely to describe the generations of Christ, it hits the same point in 8 successive verses, and hammers it home with the prophecy of the parousia coming before "this generation" passes away. This is a clear literary construction that builds up γενεα and then climaxes with the prophecy being directed at "this generation." Yet you think that in the final use - and only the final use - of γενεα it has a separate sense that is nowhere else in the Synoptics. (The others of course have parallel constructions. It's more elaborate in both Matthew and Luke than in Mark.) Why it switches is for no reason other than theological convenience - it's an ad hoc apologetic technique that even millenial Christians are having to back away from out of sheer embarrassment. No translation of any theological bent that I'm aware of uses your "nation" gloss for γενεα.

Shhh - don't confuse him with the facts.

Dark Virtue · 09-25-2009, 12:21 PM

IBIH, I know you like to claim we are looking at things in a negative light, but I want to make sure you understand that while we are looking at things differently, it's because you are looking at this in a subjective light and we are looking at them objectively.

In other words, you're trying to pound a square peg into a round hole and are quite happy to do so.

Contrary to what you believe, we have no agenda to push, nor will our world come crashing to a halt if we are proven wrong.

You on the other hand...

mrunicycler · 09-25-2009, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymouser

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

So...γενεα (genea, the word you are disputing) is used 13 times in Matthew. 1:17, 11:16, 12:39, 12:41, 12:42, 12:45, 16:4, 17:17, 23:26, and 24:34. There is quite a bit of γενεα in the Gospel, and it is on a theme - Jesus is condemning "this generation," an "evil and adulterous generation." The Gospel started out using γενεα precisely to describe the generations of Christ, it hits the same point in 8 successive verses, and hammers it home with the prophecy of the parousia coming before "this generation" passes away. This is a clear literary construction that builds up γενεα and then climaxes with the prophecy being directed at "this generation." Yet you think that in the final use - and only the final use - of γενεα it has a separate sense that is nowhere else in the Synoptics. (The others of course have parallel constructions. It's more elaborate in both Matthew and Luke than in Mark.) Why it switches is for no reason other than theological convenience - it's an ad hoc apologetic technique that even millenial Christians are having to back away from out of sheer embarrassment. No translation of any theological bent that I'm aware of uses your "nation" gloss for γενεα.

I admire your resilience for beating your head against brick walls, desks, boxes of rocks...

IBelieveInHymn · 09-26-2009, 06:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graymouser

Quote:

Originally Posted by IBelieveInHymn

The Greek word for "generation" in Matthew 24:34 can also mean "race", and the statement is also true when translated that way. The Jewish race will not perish before the Lord returns.

So...γενεα (genea, the word you are disputing) is used 13 times in Matthew. 1:17, 11:16, 12:39, 12:41, 12:42, 12:45, 16:4, 17:17, 23:26, and 24:34. There is quite a bit of γενεα in the Gospel, and it is on a theme - Jesus is condemning "this generation," an "evil and adulterous generation." The Gospel started out using γενεα precisely to describe the generations of Christ, it hits the same point in 8 successive verses, and hammers it home with the prophecy of the parousia coming before "this generation" passes away. This is a clear literary construction that builds up γενεα and then climaxes with the prophecy being directed at "this generation." Yet you think that in the final use - and only the final use - of γενεα it has a separate sense that is nowhere else in the Synoptics. (The others of course have parallel constructions. It's more elaborate in both Matthew and Luke than in Mark.) Why it switches is for no reason other than theological convenience - it's an ad hoc apologetic technique that even millenial Christians are having to back away from out of sheer embarrassment. No translation of any theological bent that I'm aware of uses your "nation" gloss for γενεα.

γενεα, genea, "family"; and λόγος, logos, "knowledge".

This could easily mean "the family", meaning "The Jews."

gdeering · 09-26-2009, 06:38 AM

Is there a difference between "explanation" and "excuse"? Apologetics seems very much like three-card-monte.

Gregg

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09-25-2009, 12:21 PM	#207
Dark Virtue Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 759	IBIH, I know you like to claim we are looking at things in a negative light, but I want to make sure you understand that while we are looking at things differently, it's because you are looking at this in a subjective light and we are looking at them objectively. In other words, you're trying to pound a square peg into a round hole and are quite happy to do so. Contrary to what you believe, we have no agenda to push, nor will our world come crashing to a halt if we are proven wrong. You on the other hand...

09-26-2009, 06:38 AM	#210
gdeering Regular Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Brooklyn Posts: 237	Is there a difference between "explanation" and "excuse"? Apologetics seems very much like three-card-monte. Gregg

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