Freethought & Rationalism Archive

semiopen · 02-25-2013, 07:21 AM

JPS and TNK have different translations, so I'm not sure how straightforward it is:

Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions they maul my hands and feet. (Psa 22:17 TNK)

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. (Psa 22:16 JPS)

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion (are) my hands and feet. (Psa 22:16 DUVI)

I posted the Rabbinic explanation in post 4

Quote:

Or is it because I called him ‘dog’, as it says. Deliver my soul from the sword, mine only one from the power of the dog?16 She straightway retracted and called him lion, as it says. Save me from the lion's mouth.

That really clears everything up. :Cheeky:

Iskander · 02-25-2013, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

JPS and TNK have different translations, so I'm not sure how straightforward it is:

Dogs surround me; a pack of evil ones closes in on me, like lions they maul my hands and feet. (Psa 22:17 TNK)

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion, they are at my hands and my feet. (Psa 22:16 JPS)

For dogs have encompassed me; a company of evil-doers have inclosed me; like a lion (are) my hands and feet. (Psa 22:16 DUVI)

I posted the Rabbinic explanation in post 4

Quote:

Or is it because I called him ‘dog’, as it says. Deliver my soul from the sword, mine only one from the power of the dog?16 She straightway retracted and called him lion, as it says. Save me from the lion's mouth.

That really clears everything up. :Cheeky:

16 For dogs are all around me;
a company of evildoers encircles me.
My hands and feet have shrivelled;*
*Meaning uncertain

Duvduv · 02-25-2013, 07:56 AM

I should have clarified that the commentary of Rabbi Meir Leibush Wissel (known as Malbim) addresses the phrase the way I described it.
The sense of "mauling" or "biting" would seem to follow along with the explanation of Rashi, whereby the evildoers are like a lion who have enclosed my hands and feet as inside the mouth of the lion.

However, once one goes down the path of possible spelling alternatives then there really is no end to them, i.e. when a chaf and a daled could be interchangeable, a vav and a yud, a bet and a chaf, etc. etc.
Indeed, between the Samaritan text and the Masoretic text we find the difference between the word "degel" (banner) and "regel" (foot) in Genesis 49:10 where the Masoretic text is "bein raglav" (between his feet) and the Samaritan is "bein degalav" (between his banners).

In any case, with regard to the case of Esther, among other things she was viewed as being in the lion's den.
And of course the incongruent ideological role of the first verse of Psalm 22 in GMark and GMatt is very clear.

semiopen · 02-25-2013, 08:54 AM

For want of a better term, the Yoshke translation is in the

Septuagint.

Quote:

A version of the legend is found in the Tractate Megillah of the Babylonian Talmud:

King Ptolemy once gathered 72 Elders. He placed them in 72 chambers, each of them in a separate one, without revealing to them why they were summoned. He entered each one's room and said: "Write for me the Torah of Moshe, your teacher." God put it in the heart of each one to translate identically as all the others did.[13]

Philo of Alexandria, who relied extensively on the Septuagint,[14] says that the number of scholars was chosen by selecting six scholars from each of the 12 tribes of Israel. This legend, with its miraculous details, underlines the fact that some Jews in antiquity wished to present the translation as authoritative.[8]

How could all of these 72 chochams have fucked up.

Quote:

A 2012 issue of Free Inquiry magazine argued that this legend was a fabrication.[15]

I would timidly agree with that in addition to timidly suggesting that the 22:17 thing a pages further in Megillah is total incoherent bullshit.

But maybe I'm being unduly influenced by

Quote:

the power of the dog

.

Duvduv · 02-25-2013, 08:59 AM

I have no evidence that the extant translation called the LXX is the same as the Greek translation known as the Shivim from the time of Alexander. In any case it was only the Torah that was translated, not the whole Tanach. And even if it were, it operates as an expanded commentary rather than a literal translation, and was never an authoritative source for use among religious Jews over the millenia.
I am accustomed of course to the epithet that everything claimed by Judaism is an empirically unproven "fabrication", so what else is new?

semiopen · 02-26-2013, 12:21 PM

The sequence of events... Yoshke theoretically executed, Gospels written, Sages writing the Esther/Psalm 22 stuff has been questioned by Duvi.

Psalm 22 in Pesiqta Rabbati: The Suffering of the Jewish Messiah and Jesus

Quote:

Psalm 22:16 is referenced as Scriptural proof of suffering, which reappears in the Christian and Jewish sources discussed below. This interpretation of Psalm 22 is not found in extant Jewish texts before the era of Christianity.6 The interpretation of Psalm 22 was augmented in rabbinic literature after Christian interpretation made it applicable to Jesus.

So at least Dr. Ulmer agrees with my timetable.

She goes on about the yud/vav controversy

Quote:

Two fragments8 containing Psalm 22:17, “For dogs surround me; the assembly of the wicked encircle me; they seize my hands and my feet like a lion,”
were discovered among the documents from the Dead Sea. In the first fragment (4Q88=4QPsf), the word translated as “like a lion” is not preserved. In the second fragment (5/6HevPs), the last letter of the term appears to be a somewhat elongated letter י (yod), almost appearing like the letter (vav). Thus, the reading of this word would be either יראכ (ka’ari) or וראכ (ka’aru), respectively. These two renditions of the term9 have been the focus of much controversy, because ChrisTwo fragments8 containing Psalm 22:17, “For dogs surround me; the assembly of the wicked encircle me; they seize my hands and my feet like a lion,” were discovered among the documents from the Dead Sea. In the fi rst fragment (4Q88=4QPsf), the word translated as “like a lion” is not preserved. In the second fragment (5/6HevPs), the last letter of the term appears to be a somewhat elongated letter י (yod), almost appearing like the letter (vav). Thus, the reading of this word would be either יראכ (ka’ari) or וראכ (ka’aru), respectively. These two renditions of the term9 have been the focus of much controversy, because Christians understand the key word as “pierced” and apply it to Jesus on the cross.10 The word ka’aru has been construed to read ורכ (karu), which has the meaning “[they] dug” (e.g., Gen. 26:25) or “they pierced.” However, this verb is never used in the context of “piercing” in the Hebrew Bible. A comparison of the versions reveals a major discrepancy in the renditions of the term in different hypo-biblical
texts.11 The lemma, “they seize my hands and my feet like a lion,” Psalm 22:17 (Christian numbering: 22:16), has been translated as “they pierced my hands and my feet,” one of the verses most frequently referenced by Christians when claiming that the crucifixion of Jesus was foretold.

In addition to further elucidating this, she also focuses on the doggie parts of psalm 22.

Her explanation is much deeper than mine, which isn't very surprising. It's very interesting to read.

The casting of lots by the soldiers to get Yoshke garments is mentioned, which is also reminiscent of Purim (my own observaton).

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02-25-2013, 07:56 AM	#33
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I should have clarified that the commentary of Rabbi Meir Leibush Wissel (known as Malbim) addresses the phrase the way I described it. The sense of "mauling" or "biting" would seem to follow along with the explanation of Rashi, whereby the evildoers are like a lion who have enclosed my hands and feet as inside the mouth of the lion. However, once one goes down the path of possible spelling alternatives then there really is no end to them, i.e. when a chaf and a daled could be interchangeable, a vav and a yud, a bet and a chaf, etc. etc. Indeed, between the Samaritan text and the Masoretic text we find the difference between the word "degel" (banner) and "regel" (foot) in Genesis 49:10 where the Masoretic text is "bein raglav" (between his feet) and the Samaritan is "bein degalav" (between his banners). In any case, with regard to the case of Esther, among other things she was viewed as being in the lion's den. And of course the incongruent ideological role of the first verse of Psalm 22 in GMark and GMatt is very clear.

02-25-2013, 08:59 AM	#35
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I have no evidence that the extant translation called the LXX is the same as the Greek translation known as the Shivim from the time of Alexander. In any case it was only the Torah that was translated, not the whole Tanach. And even if it were, it operates as an expanded commentary rather than a literal translation, and was never an authoritative source for use among religious Jews over the millenia. I am accustomed of course to the epithet that everything claimed by Judaism is an empirically unproven "fabrication", so what else is new?

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