Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 02-22-2013, 05:31 AM

It is of interest to note that as the festival of Purim is approaching Tractate Megillah 15a explains that the verse in psalm 22 was a prophetic statement concerning Esther. Although she had divine inspiration, on her way to beseech Ahaseurus she passed Persian idols and lost the divine inspiration, at which time she recited that verse, " My God, my God, why have you forsaken me."

semiopen · 02-22-2013, 06:36 AM

A likely story

Chili · 02-22-2013, 08:03 AM

Idols are ideals carved into the believers head as if in stone.

The carving here is done by way of public exposure of the mind wherein 'the shame' violates the integrity of the believer.

A good example here is where the Egyptian John in Mark calls people forward to "confess your sins and you will be saved."

The dunking part here is to add drama to the event that makes it memorable in the mind where so a pathway is carved in the memes, while in essence he wants them wet so he can do the dunkling from behind.

It is called spiritual fornication and that is just how it works.

So the figleaf is the shame complex that teaches us to walk upright and not bend over [backwards] to get a blow from the evangelist either coming in or from behind on the way out.

semiopen · 02-22-2013, 09:06 AM

I don't see a reference to psalm 22 in Megillah 15a.

MEGILLAH – 2a-32a

Part of 4a goes:

Quote:

It is the duty of a man to read the Megillah in the evening and to repeat it in the day, as it is written, O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou
answerest not, and in the night season and am not silent.11

footnote

Quote:

(11) Ps XXII, 3. This Psalm is supposed by the Talmud to refer to Esther. V. Yoma 29a.

It's actually in 15b

Quote:

R. Levi said: When she reached the chamber of the idols, the Divine Presence left her. She said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.14 Dost thou perchance punish the inadvertent offence15 like the presumptuous one, or one done under compulsion like one done willingly? Or is it because I called him ‘dog’, as it says. Deliver my soul from the sword, mine only one from
the power of the dog?16 She straightway retracted and called him lion, as it says. Save me from the lion's mouth.17 And it was so when the king saw Esther the queen.18

I actually had to go to Yoma 29a to get directed back to 15b.

There is a very interesting comment there on the size of Esther's womb.

Yoma

Quote:

R. Zera said: Why was Esther compared to a hind?9 To tell you that just as a hind has a narrow womb and is desirable to her mate at all times as at the first time, so was Esther precious to King Ahasuerus at all times as at
the first time.

Not being an expert in women's anatomy, I asked my daughter and her fiance, and their opinion is that this must be referring to her vagina.

Actually, the comparison to the hind is very deep, and is important to Lurianic (and probably other forms) of Kabbalah.

This comes from Baba Bathra 16b

Quote:

Or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve? This hind has a narrow womb. When she crouches for delivery, I prepare a serpent which bites her at the opening of the womb, and she is delivered of her offspring; and were it one second too soon or too late, she would die.2

This passage is also quoted in the Zohar.

Perhaps it explains why Ishtar didn't have many kids.

The significance of Ishtar reciting this psalm is a little questionable. Anybody could probably justifiably say the first line several times a day.

Chili · 02-22-2013, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semiopen

I don't see a reference to psalm 22 in Megillah 15a.

MEGILLAH – 2a-32a

Part of 4a goes:

Quote:

It is the duty of a man to read the Megillah in the evening and to repeat it in the day, as it is written, O my God, I cry in the daytime, but thou
answerest not, and in the night season and am not silent.11

footnote

Quote:

(11) Ps XXII, 3. This Psalm is supposed by the Talmud to refer to Esther. V. Yoma 29a.

It's actually in 15b

Quote:

R. Levi said: When she reached the chamber of the idols, the Divine Presence left her. She said, My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me.14 Dost thou perchance punish the inadvertent offence15 like the presumptuous one, or one done under compulsion like one done willingly? Or is it because I called him ‘dog’, as it says. Deliver my soul from the sword, mine only one from
the power of the dog?16 She straightway retracted and called him lion, as it says. Save me from the lion's mouth.17 And it was so when the king saw Esther the queen.18

I actually had to go to Yoma 29a to get directed back to 15b.

There is a very interesting comment there on the size of Esther's womb.

Yoma

Quote:

R. Zera said: Why was Esther compared to a hind?9 To tell you that just as a hind has a narrow womb and is desirable to her mate at all times as at the first time, so was Esther precious to King Ahasuerus at all times as at
the first time.

Not being an expert in women's anatomy, I asked my daughter and her fiance, and their opinion is that this must be referring to her vagina.

Actually, the comparison to the hind is very deep, and is important to Lurianic (and probably other forms) of Kabbalah.

This comes from Baba Bathra 16b

Quote:

Or canst thou mark when the hinds do calve? This hind has a narrow womb. When she crouches for delivery, I prepare a serpent which bites her at the opening of the womb, and she is delivered of her offspring; and were it one second too soon or too late, she would die.2

This passage is also quoted in the Zohar.

Perhaps it explains why Ishtar didn't have many kids.

The significance of Ishtar reciting this psalm is a little questionable. Anybody could probably justifiably say the first line several times a day.

Yes they make sex their idol to worship by day and by night as for them there is no peace at night.

Kind of like sex is the end of happines in life and the measure of a man is to see him as much a die with a hardon to prove he did have a good life . . . and knows she has a fancy there for him to pleasure her, and doing her a pleasure becomes his duty as the man he thinks he is, while both remain oblivious to the fact that we finger with our fingers but feel with the mind, and miss the shortcut all together wherein the kundalini can be raised and be in touch forever without having to prove it all over again and time and time again, as if it wilts away like a bible passage read.

It is just the materialist point of view expressed.

semiopen · 02-22-2013, 09:49 AM

I brought this up a while ago, but the reference to the dog in my previous post reminded me of it and it fits in with discussing Ishtar.

King Koresh had a canine for sexual purposes

Quote:

The sages claimed that Koresh, king of Persia, the king who allowed to Jews to return to Zion, started out righteous and towards the end of his life became licentious and evil. The scholars investigated the source of the sage's claim that Koresh became evil. One of the sages, Rav Yossef, explained: It is written in Nehemiah (2:6) "And the king said to me, with his shegal sitting next to him." (The king referred to in this verse is Artaxerxes, but according to the sages the kings Artaxerxes, Darius, and Koresh were all the same person, using three different names.)

Quote:

With the consort seated at his side, the king said to me, "How long will you be gone and when will you return?" So it was agreeable to the king to send me, and I gave him a date. (Neh 2:6 TNK)

וַיֹּאמֶר֩ לִ֙יאֶתְּנָ֥ה הַמֶּ֜לֶךְ וְהַשֵּׁגַ֣ל׀ יוֹשֶׁ֣בֶת אֶצְל֗וֹ עַד־מָתַ֛י יִהְיֶ֥ה מַֽהֲלָכֲךָ֖ וּמָתַ֣י תָּשׁ֑וּב וַיִּיטַ֤ב לִפְנֵֽי־הַמֶּ֙לֶךְ֙ וַיִּשְׁלָחֵ֔נִי וָֽל֖וֹ זְמָֽן׃
(Neh 2:6 WTT)

Rosh Hashana 4a

Quote:

R. Joseph, (or, as some say, R. Isaac) said: Whence do we know that he deteriorated? From here: And the king said unto me, the shegal also sitting by hint.7 What is ‘shegal’? Rabbah b. Lema said In the name of Rab, a she-dog.8 But if that is so, what are we to make of the verse, But hast lifted up thyself against the Lord of heaven, and they have brought the vessels of His house before thee, and thou and thy lords, thy shegaloth and thy concubines have drunk wine in them.9 Now how can ‘shegal’ here be a dog? Do dogs drink wine? — This is no difficulty, as [we can suppose that] it was taught to drink. But what of the verse where it is written, Kings’ daughters are among thy favourites, at thy right hand doth stand the shegal in gold of Ophir?10 Now if ‘shegal’ is a dog, what promise is the prophet bringing to Israel? — What he means is this: Because the Torah is as dear to Israel as a ‘shegal’ to the heathens, you have earned as your reward the gold of Ophir. Alternatively I may say that ‘shegal’ does as a rule mean ‘queen’, but in this case Rabbah b. Lema had a tradition [that it means ‘dog’], and the reason why [in the text] it is called ‘shegal’ is because it was as dear to him11 as a queen; or, possibly, because he put it on the queen's seat.

To be fair, in addition to the Kings "bitch" it has also been suggested that the Shegal was Esther.

Duvduv · 02-22-2013, 10:10 AM

My intention was not to turn this thread into a Talmud class. Nor did I intend to explore all aspects of the story of the Book of Esther. I simply posted about the one verse attributed to Jesus in the gospels and its mention in the Talmud vis a vis Esther.

In any case the Talmud is not commenting on Esther's womb but stating that she was beloved as such a deer. It goes on to say she was precious as the dawn, which does not mean she was the dawn.

Now can we get back to the subject of the thread?

semiopen · 02-22-2013, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

My intention was not to turn this thread into a Talmud class. Nor did I intend to explore all aspects of the story of the Book of Esther. I simply posted about the one verse attributed to Jesus in the gospels and its mention in the Talmud vis a vis Esther.

In any case the Talmud is not commenting on Esther's womb but stating that she was beloved as such a deer. It goes on to say she was precious as the dawn, which does not mean she was the dawn.

Now can we get back to the subject of the thread?

Here is the quote:

Quote:

R. Zera said: Why was Esther compared to a hind?9 To tell you that just as a hind has a narrow womb and is desirable to her mate at all times as at the first time, so was Esther precious to King Ahasuerus at all times as at
the first time.

If the comment was not about the narrowness of her womb (vagina) why mention the womb at all? It seems to me that this was the most important reason that the king found her precious.

It's possible that there is some reputable commentary making a claim similar to yours but unless you or someone else can note it, I have to go with my interpretation.

Chili · 02-22-2013, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

My intention was not to turn this thread into a Talmud class. Nor did I intend to explore all aspects of the story of the Book of Esther. I simply posted about the one verse attributed to Jesus in the gospels and its mention in the Talmud vis a vis Esther.

In any case the Talmud is not commenting on Esther's womb but stating that she was beloved as such a deer. It goes on to say she was precious as the dawn, which does not mean she was the dawn.

Now can we get back to the subject of the thread?

I thought it was German actually where goesintight is for the gesundheit to make it a slavery of sort, and so here Jesus came to heal the sick and not the self rightous medici.

semiopen · 02-22-2013, 11:30 AM

To get back to the OP, which hardly deserves a reply. I don't think Esther is considered a prophetess. Megilla 15a discusses prophets in the tractates leading up to it but does not mention this for Esther - unless I missed something.

Also, her reciting Psalm 22 would hardly make her a prophetess;. Would reciting psalm 22 after reading one of my posts make Duvi a prophet?

02-22-2013, 05:31 AM	#1
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	Psalm 22 "Eli Eli...." It is of interest to note that as the festival of Purim is approaching Tractate Megillah 15a explains that the verse in psalm 22 was a prophetic statement concerning Esther. Although she had divine inspiration, on her way to beseech Ahaseurus she passed Persian idols and lost the divine inspiration, at which time she recited that verse, " My God, my God, why have you forsaken me."

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02-22-2013, 06:36 AM	#2
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	A likely story

02-22-2013, 08:03 AM	#3
Chili Banned Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Alberta Posts: 11,885	Idols are ideals carved into the believers head as if in stone. The carving here is done by way of public exposure of the mind wherein 'the shame' violates the integrity of the believer. A good example here is where the Egyptian John in Mark calls people forward to "confess your sins and you will be saved." The dunking part here is to add drama to the event that makes it memorable in the mind where so a pathway is carved in the memes, while in essence he wants them wet so he can do the dunkling from behind. It is called spiritual fornication and that is just how it works. So the figleaf is the shame complex that teaches us to walk upright and not bend over [backwards] to get a blow from the evangelist either coming in or from behind on the way out.

02-22-2013, 10:10 AM	#7
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	My intention was not to turn this thread into a Talmud class. Nor did I intend to explore all aspects of the story of the Book of Esther. I simply posted about the one verse attributed to Jesus in the gospels and its mention in the Talmud vis a vis Esther. In any case the Talmud is not commenting on Esther's womb but stating that she was beloved as such a deer. It goes on to say she was precious as the dawn, which does not mean she was the dawn. Now can we get back to the subject of the thread?

02-22-2013, 11:30 AM	#10
semiopen Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Hillsborough, NJ Posts: 3,551	To get back to the OP, which hardly deserves a reply. I don't think Esther is considered a prophetess. Megilla 15a discusses prophets in the tractates leading up to it but does not mention this for Esther - unless I missed something. Also, her reciting Psalm 22 would hardly make her a prophetess;. Would reciting psalm 22 after reading one of my posts make Duvi a prophet?

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