Freethought & Rationalism Archive

arnoldo · 11-17-2011, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

It is important to remember that the Pauline writer claimed he was a Pharisee and a Hebrew of Hebrews and travelled all the Roman Empire in Major Cities preaching to the Gentiles so when Justin Martyr DIALOGUES with Trypho the Jew the Jew it is remarkable that Justin does NOT ever tell Trypho about Paul, the Pharisee.

In "Dialogue With Trypho" as in "First Apology" Justin Martyr wrote about the PREACHING of the Gospel throughout the world and again Justin claim that it was the apostles from Jerusalem and did NOT mention Paul.

"Dialogue With Trypho" CIX

Quote:

..."But that the Gentiles would repent of the evil in which they led erring lives, when they heard the doctrine preached by His apostles from Jerusalem, and which they learned through them, suffer me to show you by quoting a short statement from the prophecy of Micah, one of the twelve [minor prophets].

This is as follows: 'And in the last days the mountain of the Lord shall be manifest, established on the top of the mountains; it shall be exalted above the hills, arid people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go, and say, Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and they shall enlighten us in His way, and we shall walk in His paths.....

Justin Martyr does NOT know of Paul at all.

When one considers the Pauline writings it is MOST incredible that Paul, a Pharisee and a Jew could have PREACHED ALL over the ROMAN EMPIRE and in MAJOR CITIES that a JEW called Jesus was LORD in the Roman Empire, that EVERY KNEE SHOULD BOW before the name of a resurrected Jew and that the resurrected JEW had a name ABOVE EVERY NAME in the Roman Empire even above the DEIFIED EMPERORS of Rome.

And not ONLY that Paul Preached that the resurrected Jew was the END of the LAW.

HOW in the world could a PHARISEE and a Jew make such claims in the Roman Empire and even at Rome for OVER 17 years?

Php 3:5 -

Quote:

Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee...

Justin Martyr shuts down Paul. . .

Justin Martyr does not mention Paul's writings, however he does mention Marcion. Is it reasonable to assume that Marcion was not aware of Paul's writings as well?

aa5874 · 11-17-2011, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Justin Martyr does not mention Paul's writings, however he does mention Marcion. Is it reasonable to assume that Marcion was not aware of Paul's writings as well?

I am done with unsubstantiated assumptions. You must first find a credible source of antiquity with DATA about Marcion.

Hippolytus, another apologetic source, did claim Marcion did NOT, I repeat, Marcion did NOT use the Pauline writings. Marcion PLAGERISED Empedocles.

Justin Martyr did also mention Empedocles.

Refutation Against All Heresies 7

Quote:

When, therefore, Marcion or some one of his hounds barks against the Demiurge, and adduces reasons from a comparison of what is good and bad, we ought to say to them, that neither Paul the apostle nor Mark, he of the maimed finger, announced such (tenets). For none of these (doctrines) has been written in the Gospel according to Mark.

But (the real author of the system) is Empedocles, son of Meto, a native of Agrigentum....

arnoldo · 11-18-2011, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

. . Hippolytus, another apologetic source, did claim Marcion did NOT, I repeat, Marcion did NOT use the Pauline writings. Marcion PLAGERISED Empedocles.

Justin Martyr did also mention Empedocles.

Refutation Against All Heresies 7

Quote:

When, therefore, Marcion or some one of his hounds barks against the Demiurge, and adduces reasons from a comparison of what is good and bad, we ought to say to them, that neither Paul the apostle nor Mark, he of the maimed finger, announced such (tenets). For none of these (doctrines) has been written in the Gospel according to Mark.

But (the real author of the system) is Empedocles, son of Meto, a native of Agrigentum....

Couldn't Hippolytus be arguing that Marcion did not, in actuality, follow Paul's tenents be precisely because Marcion was claiming so?

aa5874 · 11-18-2011, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

. . Hippolytus, another apologetic source, did claim Marcion did NOT, I repeat, Marcion did NOT use the Pauline writings. Marcion PLAGERISED Empedocles.

Justin Martyr did also mention Empedocles.

Refutation Against All Heresies 7

Quote:

When, therefore, Marcion or some one of his hounds barks against the Demiurge, and adduces reasons from a comparison of what is good and bad, we ought to say to them, that neither Paul the apostle nor Mark, he of the maimed finger, announced such (tenets). For none of these (doctrines) has been written in the Gospel according to Mark.

But (the real author of the system) is Empedocles, son of Meto, a native of Agrigentum....

Couldn't Hippolytus be arguing that Marcion did not, in actuality, follow Paul's tenents be precisely because Marcion was claiming so?

Well please show me where the Pauline writings mention the doctrine of Dualism?

Marcion preached Dualism according to Hippolytus.

The Pauline Jesus was God's Son BORN of a WOMAN, God INCARNATE, but Marcion's Phantom Son of God had ZERO BIRTH on earth and ZERO FLESH.

Marcion also preached ANOTHER God and ANOTHER Son, not Jesus Christ, not the Son of the God of the Jews. See "First Apology"

Hippolytus and Justin Martyr contradict Tertullian and further Tertullian ADMITTED that he was ACTUALLY using an anonymous writing and attributed the anonymous writing to Marcion.

"Against Marcion" 4.2

Quote:

Marcion, on the other hand, you must know, ascribes no author to his Gospel, as if it could not be allowed him to affix a title to that from which it was no crime (in his eyes) to subvert the very body....

Tertullian claimed Marcion mutilated gLuke but did NOT know who wrote gLuke and was using an anonymous Gospel that he attributed to Marcion.

I cannot accept Tertullian's "Against Marcion" when it is contradicted by apologetic sources.

gLuke, the Pauline writings, Justin Martyr, and Hippolytus contradict Tertullian's "Against Marcion".

arnoldo · 11-19-2011, 03:08 PM

You’re right, Tertullian claims that Marcion edited Luke’s gospel and then published this edited gospel anonymously. From Tertullian, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chpt. 2)

Quote:

Marcion, on the other hand, you must know, ascribes no author to his Gospel, as if it could not be allowed him to affix a title to that from which it was no crime (in his eyes) to subvert the very body. And here I might now make a stand, and contend that a work ought not to be recognised, which holds not its head erect, which exhibits no consistency, which gives no promise of credibility from the fullness of its title and the just profession of its author. But we prefer to join issue on every point; nor shall we leave unnoticed what may fairly be understood to be on our side. Now, of the authors whom we possess, Marcion seems to have singled out Luke for his mutilating process.

The issue of whether Marcion was aware of Paul’s writings, however, appears to be still open to debate.

aa5874 · 11-19-2011, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

You’re right, Tertullian claims that Marcion edited Luke’s gospel and then published this edited gospel anonymously. From Tertullian, Against Heresies (Book IV, Chpt. 2)...

But, why must I accept what Tertullian claimed about an anonymous writing when he was attributing other anonymous writings to author called Matthew, Mark, Luke and John and appears to have been 100% in error.

"Against Marcion" 4.2

Quote:

... Of the apostles, therefore, John and Matthew first instil faith into us; while of apostolic men, Luke and Mark renew it afterwards....

Based on Experts it is likely that Tertullian was in complete error with the dating and authorship of the Gospels.

But, that is NOT all. Tertullian appears to be wrong about the dating and authorship of the very Pauline writings.

How can Tertullian be credible when it appears he has NO real idea who wrote the Gospels and the Pauline writings?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

The issue of whether Marcion was aware of Paul’s writings, however, appears to be still open to debate.

The matter has been settled.

It is just some people don't want to accept that Marcion most likely did NOT use the Pauline writings since they were probably NOT even written or known when Marcion was alive.

Marcion plagerized Empedocles and Preached Dualism. The doctrine of Dualism is NOT in the Pauline writings and Justin Martyr was NOT aware of Paul, the single most important post-resurrection character in the NT.

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