Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Gwalcmai · 11-22-2006, 06:05 AM

Last night I was watching the American Music Awards with my girlfriend (ugh the things we do for love). Anyway, there was an add for a movie called: The Nativity. The announcer called it a true story! I couldn't believe it. Did anyone else see that?

Godless Raven · 11-22-2006, 06:08 AM

I saw an ad for this piece of...'work' at a movie theatre. After the promo played, there was dead silence in the theatre and then my wife and I just bursted out laughing our heads off.

credoconsolans · 11-22-2006, 04:58 PM

*sigh*

I saw the same thing. My niece sat there and scoffed and she goes to Catholic school!!!

I was pretty disgusted especially when I thought I saw Roman soldiers doing Herod the Great's bidding by massacring the innocents.

aa5874 · 11-22-2006, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gwalcmai

Last night I was watching the American Music Awards with my girlfriend (ugh the things we do for love). Anyway, there was an add for a movie called: The Nativity. The announcer called it a true story! I couldn't believe it. Did anyone else see that?

Which version are they calling the true story, Matthew's or Luke's nativity story.

delhurgo · 11-22-2006, 07:44 PM

A host on Fox News was talking about the Nativity the other night and called it "historical". I have the feeling that even most non-religious people and even some atheists believe that this actually happend. They dont believe the virgin birth, but thats the easy part, the hard part is understanding that the whole thing was made up.

Malachi151 · 11-22-2006, 07:51 PM

How do they handle the "three wise men" event, seeing as how in the Bible it doesn't say that there are three, and is says that Jesus is a young man, not an infant, when they come to visit?

S.C.Carlson · 11-22-2006, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malachi151

How do they handle the "three wise men" event, seeing as how in the Bible it doesn't say that there are three, and is says that Jesus is a young man, not an infant, when they come to visit?

"young man"? Where does it say that?

Stephen

Jayrok · 11-22-2006, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Which version are they calling the true story, Matthew's or Luke's nativity story.

I saw this commercial last night and this was my first thought as well. It appears they will mix the stories because it looked like Herod the Great was in one scene. So it appears they'll have the flight to Egypt before the 2 years and under age massacre. But the nativity scene is not in Matthew, it's in Luke's story. Herod is not in Luke's story. Herod was dead 10 years before the timing of Luke's census, which brought them to Bethlehem from their home in Nazareth. According to Matthew's story, they didn't settle in Nazareth until after the return from Egypt (when Jesus was around 2 years old) and only did so because Herod's son was in charge in Jerusalem. Apologists perform lots of mental gymnastics trying to mesh these stories into one true story.

It will be funny if the movie has the wise men and the shepherds at the Nativity scene like all the christmas cards.

spin · 11-22-2006, 11:03 PM

Here's a tabulated comparison between aspects of the two variant nativity stories:

Code:

           | Matthew                 | Luke
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Angel      | appears to Joseph       | appears to Mary before
           | during pregnancy        | pregnancy
           |                         |
           | misunderstands Isa 7:14 | 
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Angel      |                         |
gives name | Immanuel                | Jesus
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Mary       | --                      | rehashes Hannah's prayer
           |                         | 1 Sam 2:1-10
           |                         | + JtB material
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Date       | Sufficiently before     | the Quirinius census
           | Herod's death in 4 BCE  | 6 CE because of misrule
           | The innocent babies     | by Archelaus
           | were up to 2 years old  |
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Home       | Bethlehem               | Nazareth
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Birth      | Joseph takes Mary into  | Joseph and Mary go to
           | his house, where she    | Bethlehem for census,
           | bears Jesus             | she bears J in manger
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Adoration  | Wise men follow star    | --
           | to Bethlehem            | 
           | --                      | Shepherds and angels
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Egypt      | Angel says to flee to   |
           | Egypt because of        | --
           | massacre of innocents   |
           | They immediately flee   |
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Cultic     |                         | Circumcised
duties     | --                      | after eight days
           |                         | after 66 days, Jesus
           |                         | presented in temple
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------
Return     | After Herod's death but |
from Egypt | can't go to Judea due   | --
           | to Archelaus, so they   |
           | move to Nazareth        |
-----------|-------------------------|-------------------------

It should be clear that there are very few similarities between them, suggesting that neither gospel received the story from the other. Otherwise we would expect more similarities. There are numerous differences, which one might conclude, feebly, that they are just two different versions of the same story and the differences are only to be expected, though the ratio of differences to similarities argues against this conclusion.

However, there are a number of outright contradictions between them that point to there being no reality behind the accounts as received. This doesn't mean that the tradition is necessarily worthless, but that there was little to it before it developed into the two separate traditions given by Matt and Luke. What little there is needs no history at all behind it in order for the meagre traces of messianic speculation to come together from Jewish traditions. The messiah after all is the son of David, who was born in Bethlehem and, being the messiah, his birth would be foreknown by revelation.

But to the contradictions:

The date of birth,
The home of Joseph,
Where Jesus was born (house or manger),
The events after the birth (cultic duties exclude the flight to Egypt).

The development of at least one of the two accounts is not based on reality. If one could develop without tenable sources, so could the other, given the observable ways traditions develop.

spin

Malachi151 · 11-23-2006, 05:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by S.C.Carlson

"young man"? Where does it say that?

Stephen

I was wrong. I thought I remembered Jesus talking to the wise men when they came, but he didn't.

Still, as the story of Matthew has it, which is the one with the Star, he isn't a newborn and they are in a house, not a "manger".

Quote:

Matthew 2:

When they saw that the star had stopped, they were overwhelmed with joy. On entering the house, they saw the child with Mary his mother; and they knelt down and paid him homage. Then, opening their treasure-chests, they offered him gifts of gold, frankincense, and myrrh. And having been warned in a dream not to return to Herod, they left for their own country by another road.

The "manger" scene is in Luke, sans wise men:

Quote:

Luke 2:

15When the angels went away from them into heaven, the shepherds said to one another, "Let us go over to Bethlehem and see this thing that has happened, which the Lord has made known to us." 16And they went with haste and found Mary and Joseph, and the baby lying in a manger. 17And when they saw it, they made known the saying that had been told them concerning this child. 18And all who heard it wondered at what the shepherds told them. 19But Mary treasured up all these things, pondering them in her heart. 20And the shepherds returned, glorifying and praising God for all they had heard and seen, as it had been told them.

11-22-2006, 06:05 AM	#1
Gwalcmai Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Upstate NY Posts: 16	The Nativity Last night I was watching the American Music Awards with my girlfriend (ugh the things we do for love). Anyway, there was an add for a movie called: The Nativity. The announcer called it a true story! I couldn't believe it. Did anyone else see that?

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11-22-2006, 06:08 AM	#2
Godless Raven Contributor Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Cun City, Vulgaria Posts: 10,293	I saw an ad for this piece of...'work' at a movie theatre. After the promo played, there was dead silence in the theatre and then my wife and I just bursted out laughing our heads off.

11-22-2006, 04:58 PM	#3
credoconsolans Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: land of the home, free of the brave Posts: 9,729	sigh I saw the same thing. My niece sat there and scoffed and she goes to Catholic school!!! I was pretty disgusted especially when I thought I saw Roman soldiers doing Herod the Great's bidding by massacring the innocents.

11-22-2006, 07:44 PM	#5
delhurgo Regular Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Pennsylvania Posts: 149	A host on Fox News was talking about the Nativity the other night and called it "historical". I have the feeling that even most non-religious people and even some atheists believe that this actually happend. They dont believe the virgin birth, but thats the easy part, the hard part is understanding that the whole thing was made up.

11-22-2006, 07:51 PM	#6
Malachi151 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Colorado Posts: 8,674	How do they handle the "three wise men" event, seeing as how in the Bible it doesn't say that there are three, and is says that Jesus is a young man, not an infant, when they come to visit?

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