Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-30-2008, 11:25 AM

Message: Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them.

Although Christians blame the Jews for not knowing who Jesus was, it was God's fault. If Micah had said that the messiah would become ruler of a heavenly kingdom, and that he would heal people, and that he would be crucified and rise from the dead, and that Pontius Pilate would become governor of Palestine, there are not any doubts whatsoever that a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus.

A God who wanted to use prophecy for anything would make lots of indisputable predictions that would discourage dissent instead of needlessly inviting dissent. No reasonable motives for God's refusal to make indisputable predictions, thereby needlessly encouraging dissent instead of discouraging dissent = no God of the Bible.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-30-2008, 12:17 PM

Message to arnoldo: Why did God allow Trajan to kill 500,000 Jews in Palestine in the early part of the 2nd century?

If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-30-2008, 01:44 PM

Message to arnoldo: Why did God allow Trajan to kill 500,000 Jews in Palestine in the early part of the 2nd century?

If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-30-2008, 01:45 PM

Message: Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them.

Although Christians blame the Jews for not knowing who Jesus was, it was God's fault. If Micah had said that the messiah would become ruler of a heavenly kingdom, and that he would heal people, and that he would be crucified and rise from the dead, and that Pontius Pilate would become governor of Palestine, there are not any doubts whatsoever that a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus.

A God who wanted to use prophecy for anything would make lots of indisputable predictions that would discourage dissent instead of needlessly inviting dissent. No reasonable motives for God's refusal to make indisputable predictions, thereby needlessly encouraging dissent instead of discouraging dissent = no God of the Bible.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-30-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Question: How many governments supplied troops for the State of Israel to defend itself in 1948. Answer: 0.

During the first several years of the Second World War, did the U.S. have any troops in Europe? No.

Without American aid, would the British have been defeated? Yes.

Without a majority vote by the U.N., would the Jews have tried to occupy parts of Palestine at that time? No.

If the Bible did not exist, would the vote by the U.N. have been the same? No. The proof is that out of the 33 governments that voted in favor of the partition, 32 are Christian, and 1, the Russian government, was joyfully receiving lots of aid from the U.S. Out of the 13 governments that voted against the partition, 12 are not-Chrisitian, and 1, the Greek government, is nominally Christian. Now are you going to embarrass yourself and tell us that Christianity, Judaism, and military power did not have anything to do with the Partition of Palestine, and that if the Axis Powers had won the Second World War, the Palestine would have been partitioned.

Is it true that even if a prophecy is false, if people believe that it is true, and have enough military power, they can make it come true? Yes.

Could God have made indisputable prophecies that would have left no doubt about the history of the Jewish people? Yes.

Could God easily prove to everyone's satisfaction that he can predict the future if he wanted to?

2 Samuel 7:10 says that the Jews will have a homeland where no one will bother them. That is not going to happen.

arnoldo · 01-30-2008, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

2 Samuel 7:10 says that the Jews will have a homeland where no one will bother them. That is not going to happen.

So are you predicting more wars in the future instead of peace?

arnoldo · 01-30-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message: Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them.

Or they misunderstood prophecy?

Sheshonq · 01-30-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

2 Samuel 7:10 says that the Jews will have a homeland where no one will bother them. That is not going to happen.

So are you predicting more wars in the future instead of peace?

There have always been wars. Why is predicting "the future will look like the past" somehow mysterious or divine?

Sheshonq · 01-30-2008, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Quote:

QUOTE=Johnny Skeptic;5124525]Message: Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them.

Or they misunderstood prophecy?

But there's no evidence of that.

arnoldo · 01-30-2008, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Skeptic

Message to arnoldo: If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel has never been scattered to all the nations in the Old Testament times the Jews left Israel at various times such as Egypt, Babylon, but they always returned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Question: How many governments supplied troops for the State of Israel to defend itself in 1948. Answer: 0.

During the first several years of the Second World War, did the U.S. have any troops in Europe? No.

Without American aid, would the British have been defeated? Yes.

Without a majority vote by the U.N., would the Jews have tried to occupy parts of Palestine at that time? No.

If the Bible did not exist, would the vote by the U.N. have been the same? No. The proof is that out of the 33 governments that voted in favor of the partition, 32 are Christian, and 1, the Russian government, was joyfully receiving lots of aid from the U.S. Out of the 13 governments that voted against the partition, 12 are not-Chrisitian, and 1, the Greek government, is nominally Christian. Now are you going to embarrass yourself and tell us that Christianity, Judaism, and military power did not have anything to do with the Partition of Palestine, and that if the Axis Powers had won the Second World War, the Palestine would have been partitioned.

Is it true that even if a prophecy is false, if people believe that it is true, and have enough military power, they can make it come true? Yes.

Well obviously Jewish people two thousand years ago were believing the Kingdom of Israel was going to arise and that didn't come true. The Romans utterly and completely destroyed Israel and scattered them to the nations. However Israel has returned back to it's historical homeland and will never be uprooted again.

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01-30-2008, 11:25 AM	#901
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message: Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them. Although Christians blame the Jews for not knowing who Jesus was, it was God's fault. If Micah had said that the messiah would become ruler of a heavenly kingdom, and that he would heal people, and that he would be crucified and rise from the dead, and that Pontius Pilate would become governor of Palestine, there are not any doubts whatsoever that a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus. A God who wanted to use prophecy for anything would make lots of indisputable predictions that would discourage dissent instead of needlessly inviting dissent. No reasonable motives for God's refusal to make indisputable predictions, thereby needlessly encouraging dissent instead of discouraging dissent = no God of the Bible.

01-30-2008, 12:17 PM	#902
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Why did God allow Trajan to kill 500,000 Jews in Palestine in the early part of the 2nd century? If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

01-30-2008, 01:44 PM	#903
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Why did God allow Trajan to kill 500,000 Jews in Palestine in the early part of the 2nd century? If you decided that you wanted to protect John Smith from being attacked by his enemies because John Smith was your friend, would you injure or kill him? Of course you wouldn't, which invites the question "If God wanted to protect Jews from their enemies, why did he sometimes injure or kill them with storms and harmful microorganisms? With parasites alone, God has killed more people than all of the wars in history, and he has done so indiscriminately without any regard for a person's worldview. It is utter nonsense for anyone to assume that God would protect Jews from being injured or killed by humans, but not from being injured or killed by anything else.

01-30-2008, 01:45 PM	#904
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message: Micah 5:2 says "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." If the Jews believed that the messiah would become ruler of Israel in this life, which I believe that they did, God deceived them. Although Christians blame the Jews for not knowing who Jesus was, it was God's fault. If Micah had said that the messiah would become ruler of a heavenly kingdom, and that he would heal people, and that he would be crucified and rise from the dead, and that Pontius Pilate would become governor of Palestine, there are not any doubts whatsoever that a lot more Jews would have accepted Jesus. A God who wanted to use prophecy for anything would make lots of indisputable predictions that would discourage dissent instead of needlessly inviting dissent. No reasonable motives for God's refusal to make indisputable predictions, thereby needlessly encouraging dissent instead of discouraging dissent = no God of the Bible.

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