Jayrok

Ezekiel 36:25-27 --- 25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them. (King James Version)



God will regather his people, sprinkle water on them and cleanse them from their iniquities... Then give them a new heart and will put his (God's) spirit within them, which will cause them to walk righteously in his statutes and be able to keep his judgments (laws/commandments).

Verse 36 -- .... I the LORD have spoken it, and I will do it.


Question - If it is possible and even God's plan (in writing) to cleanse the Israelites, and put his own spirit in them to allow them to be able to follow his laws properly, why didn't he do it?

1. Why the need to send Jesus at all? If God was going to fix it where they were righteous and could keep his laws, isn't that what he wanted the whole time?

2. If the laws were too difficult to keep and only pointed out man's sin, as Paul taught, why would God make a false promise (or sense of hope) like that to the Jews where he promises they'll receive a new heart and be able to follow his laws?

3. And if he did follow through on his promise to put his spirit in them to cause them to keep his laws, how would that not violate their free will?

Clouseau

The Mosaic Law was never able to save, because it had to be kept perfectly or not at all:

'Whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it.' James 2:10-11

The Law was, as Paul wrote, only a 'schoolmaster' to bring people to Christ, to show that keeping rules did not work. Instead, the saint is imputed with the perfect righteousness of God himself through faith in Christ's sacrifice. It was by faith in God that Abraham was justified, and it is by faith in Christ's sacrifice that anyone can be justified, be given a new heart, and become a temple of the Holy Spirit.

Many Jews did not accept Christ. There was no coercion. "Kick the dust off your feet," Jesus said to his evangelists.

Jayrok

That's precisely the point. God said that he was going to forgive them of their sins and give them a new heart so that they can be able to keep his laws. He was going to put his spirit in them so that they could obey his laws righteously.

And the idea of "Being Saved" was not even an idea to Ezekiel. There was no need of a "savior" to keep people from going to hell. The Jews were promised by God that he would take care of them, make them righteous, and live with them for all to see.

He never gave them any indication that the Mosaic Laws were just schoolmasters to show them their sin. He never hints that he will instead send his son, or incarnate himself, to be the end-all sacrifice for mankind. No, he tells them he will have compassion on them and will give them a new heart so that they can finally follow his commandments.

Well sure, but this is irrelevent. The prophecy never came true you see. God didn't regather all the Israelites from exile, cleanse their sins and give them new hearts in order to be able to keep his laws.

So the portion in Ezekiel 36 never came true. And apparently it never will. If it did, there would be no need for Jesus as savior... and if it came true the Israelites would certainly be able to keep all of the commandments to a T. That's why God would put his spirit in them, so they could keep his laws without stumbling. If that prophecy came true, the comment in James 2 would be a non-issue.

But since the religion had to evolve with the times these issues had to be reinterpreted. Judaism fell to the side while the new religion took over.


Where is this indicated in the Hebrew scriptures?

As echoed through Jeremiah and Ezekiel, God's plan was to forgive the Israelites for their sins, set them straight, and give them the ability to keep his laws and commandments. This was God's will.

Paul, of course, turned the Hebrew scriptures on its ear and led a movement in another direction.

Clouseau

'O Israel, put your hope in the Lord,
for with the Lord is unfailing love
and with him is full redemption.
He himself will redeem Israel
from all their sins.'

Ps 130:7-8 NIV

He did, though. He even told them where he would be born.

'"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
though you are small among the clans of Judah,
out of you will come for me
one who will be ruler over Israel,
whose origins are from of old,
from ancient times."'

Mic 5:2 NIV

Not as a literal truth, but this may be allegory, as many suppose.

Israel's failure stretches from Sinai to Jesus' ministry, then on to the destruction of the Temple and beyond.

Steven Carr

There is no Hell to be saved from in the Pentateuch.

Steven Carr

So God ordered the massacre of the Amalekites and the Canaanites and the Midianites to keep Israel pure, knowing all along that these deaths were in vain?

Clouseau

The Tanakh is not the Pentateuch, though.

Clouseau

No. Think harder.

Steven Carr

So how did God keep Israel pure, as he committed himself to doing in Ezekiel 36:25-27?

Or was that God's 'No more taxes' moment?

Jayrok

Yes, and I've already posted the passage where he promised he would cleanse them of their sins and redeem Israel (Ezekiel 36 and through the rest of the book). And nowhere in those passages does he mention sending his son to die and their redemption hinging on their belief in Jesus. Instead, even after he redeems them he will still require blood sacrifices for sin and will require them to keep his laws and sabbaths.


Where in Micah does it say this ruler will die for the sins of mankind, or that this ruler is God encarnate?

Instead, we read the rest of this passage in Micah (5:3-5):

Therefore Israel will be abandoned
until the time when she who is in labor gives birth
and the rest of his brothers return
to join the Israelites.

4 He will stand and shepherd his flock
in the strength of the LORD,
in the majesty of the name of the LORD his God.
And they will live securely, for then his greatness
will reach to the ends of the earth.

5 And he will be their peace.


Israel will be abandoned until the time when she who is in labor (Mary?) gives birth and the rest of his brothers return to join the Israelites. He will stand and shepherd his flock in the strength of the Lord.

And they will live securely, for then his greatness will reach the ends of the earth... and he will be their peace.

When did he rule Israel or protect as a shepherd over Israel? When did they live securely and in peace... while the Romans were occupying Jerusalem?

He will keep them secure and in peace? Tell that to the Israelites who were decimated in AD 70.

It's interesting how we can pick and choose which prophecies are literal and which are allegorical. Which ever way it fits into dogma I suppose.


You wrote: The Law was, as Paul wrote, only a 'schoolmaster' to bring people to Christ, to show that keeping rules did not work.


To which I replied Where is this indicated in the Hebrew scriptures?


Where in the Hebrew scriptures does it indicate that the Mosaic Laws were only meant to reveal man's sin and that it is impossible to follow the law?