spin

Let me get this straight. Shakespeare, when he wrote about Julius Caesar, tells us that not only was Caesar killed at the Theatre of Pompey, but on the porch of the theatre. The theatre was destroyed in antiquity, so for Shakespeare to know about the Theatre of Pompey he must have lived before the theatre was destroyed. Is that right?


spin

sschlichter

good stuff!

Toto

No one makes this argument.

There was high Christology in the 1st century, in the form of Paul's writings - unless you think that Paul write in the second century, as some here do.

But the underlying assumption has been that the gospel story started with "low" Christology in Mark, that was elevated by the later gospel writers. This is all based on the assumption that there was a historical Jesus who was mythologized.

All of these assumptions could be reexamined.

spamandham

There is nothing to indicate that part of the story is in the present, and part in the past. Obviously, the entire story *had* to be in the past at the time of authorship, unless you are suggesting John wrote prior to 30 CE. Our job is determine whether it is recent past, or distant past.

There is nothing in the story to indicate that the angel of the lord "came from time to time" up until Jesus arrived, and then quit coming. The entire story is placed into a more distant past with "an angel of the lord came from time to time". John has simply worked Jesus into the Bethesda legend, by having him heal a man who was waiting for "an angel of the lord who heals".

Further, the Bordeaux Pilgrim (333 CE) describes his pilgrimage to the Pool of Bethesda, and several such pools have been uncovered by archaeologists still in tact. So there is no reason whatsoever that the mention of the Bethesda Pool somehow indicates a pre-70 date of authorship. Clearly, the pools were not destroyed when the temple was destroyed (one wonders how the Romans could have even hypothetically gone about destroying a pool hewn out of stone fed by a natural stream).

Josephus mentions several pools by name, but not one known as the "Pool of Bethesda". This is evidence that the name "Pool of Bethesda" was first coined sometime after Josephus.

Someone intimately familiar with the pools would know there were several of them, not just one.

bacht

Thanks Toto

Early high christology is more of a marker for a mythic Christ, one not brought "down to earth" by the synoptic gospels.

If we presume an historical Jesus the traditional reconstruction is something like this:
i) Jesus not proclaimed as Christ during his lifetime
ii) Jesus is crucified and rises from the dead - this marks his transition from prophet to Christ in the minds of his followers - he is the one who has "earned the name above every name" but not yet equated with God (not a Jewish concept)
iii) Jesus elevated to near-equal divine status by later gentile believers

If we presume a mythical Jesus then the process is reversed:
i) Christ the Son, the Word has been revealed to the elect in the end time
ii) Jesus is given a biography on earth by later gentile believers starting with Mark (no birth stories, no youth stories, he just appears one day at the Jordan where God proclaims "this is my beloved Son" etc) and apocalyptic is toned down

I honestly don't know how to date the gospel of John, but the equation of a resurrected Christ with God suggests gentile thinking rather than Jewish. The Jewish messiah was sometimes portrayed as dying before the final judgment, but his return was part of the general resurrection (eg 4 Esdras)

Steven Avery

Since Shakespeare was accepted as a fictional writer (writing 'docudrama-style' of past events in the present tense) this is a very silly analogy attempt, your probably had to strain your brain to come up with .. something. The very fact that this is what you came up with affirms the scriptural present tense.

A real analogy would be if Mark Twain, when traveling through Israel in the 1800s, wrote "there is a beautiful temple of the Jews in the midst of Jerusalem on the Temple Mount (or City of David if you prefer)" .. hmmm.. that would be a puzzler, and this is unlikely to be in his accounts.

However if Samuel wrote .. "bathed in the beautiful hot springs in the hills at Hamat Gadar (Gadarene region in the NT) near the Sea of Galilee" .. that would have been a true site 1800 years back, true, yet his words would affirm those hot springs in existence and in use at the day of his travels and writings."

==================

Spam should simply reread the text, which carefully switches from present tense to past. The present tense part is:

John 5:2
Now there is at Jerusalem by the sheep market a pool,
which is called in the Hebrew tongue Bethesda, having five porches.

While the 70 AD destruction may not have decimated the pool, under the rubble so to speak, there would be no more sheep market, and especially .. no more porches. Those can I believe be seen today from the archaeological ruins. Like .. real history.

Shalom,
Steven

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

Thanks for pointing out one major flaw in your argument, before I got to it, pointing out that some critics do exactly what I said above, especially here.

(More could be said about how the critics use the corruptions in the alexandrian text to give Paul a lower Christology as well, especially 1 Timothy 3:16.)

Thank you for agreeing with me that the assumptions are weak, let us look at the high Christology of John before 70 AD and reexamine the early believers Christology more properly without strained NT dating.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

sschlichter

I think there may be some truth in the fact that the church had a hard time grasping Jesus' equality with God. However, it is not due to a progression of thought in the gospels. It is likely due to the same reason those professing Christ today have a hard time understanding him to be God.

In fact, the books expected to be more Jewish assign divinity as much as anywhere else. Matt 22:41-46 (Mark 12:36), Matt 26, Epistle to the Hebrews (first 5 chapters)

Paul in Colossians 1:15-20, 2:9, Phil 2:5-11.

References to Jesus as 'Lord' when quoting OT passages referencing God. Acts 2:20, Rom 10:13 for examples.

the earliest and most Jewish seem to reference Christ's equality with God as much as John.

Steven Avery

Hi Folks,

Doug, I do not think the poster gave reasons at that point, he was simply expressing a learned opinion of this issue.

Shalom,
Steven Avery

sschlichter

This is what is left of the pool just inside the sheep gate in Jerusalem.