Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Alter · 01-26-2006, 07:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul2

Why would i pretend that the bible is flawless? It's the word of god, so of course it's flawless. I mean, have you actually read the bible? If you read it with god's holy spirit in your heart you will understand.

Paul: go ahead, read it with "god's holy spirit". But read the whole thing, and don't skip the bad parts.

I suggest http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com .

Read it there, and then tell me again that the bible is perfect. This is a direct challenge to your faith.

Toto · 01-26-2006, 11:57 AM

This was moved to BCH without checking in with me, but since it's here. . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Jesus

...

1> How can evil exist in humans when there is an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent creator of the human race?

The picture of God (or YHWH or Adonai) in the Bible, especially the Hebrew Scriptures, is not that of an omnipotent or omniscient or omnibenevolent one. That God made the world imperfect, got angry and did things He later regretted. The Hebrew Scriptures say that he is the source of good and evil.

Why? The ancients identified God with forces of Nature, and were trying to explain natural disasters and other phenomena.

The idea of an omni-everything God arose later from Persian religion and Hellenistic philosophy.

Quote:

2> To say that God can do utterly anything would mean that God can break the second law of logic, making that claim illogical (an omnipotent being can make itself exist and not exist at the same time in the same sense, which is a nonsensical claim).

See above.

Quote:

3> Three divine egos (The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) that have three different sets of attributes are called three different gods, not the same God.

Funny thing, the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible.

Historically, the writers of the Bible envisioned a supreme god who required various intermediaries to communicate with earth - angels, a son, etc. When later theologians tried to force strict monotheism on the stories in the Bible, they had to force three entities into one god.

Quote:

4> Free will does not exist with fate, and if the future was known beyond a shadow of a doubt (as it is, in Christian theology, for God knows the future and God is never wrong), there is fate. God created the fate of humans, but punishes them all the same. (you have a die in your hand. You are about to roll it, but being omniscient, you know it's going to land on a 3. Being omnipotent, you know how to roll it to where it lands on another number. When you get around to rolling the die, is that number truly random? No, you are directly responsible for the number that results.)

Yup. The Biblical era Jews and Christians often cast lots to get some indication of what God wanted them to do, on the assumption that God would influence the roll of the die. That's how Judas' replacement in the 12 was chosen.

TomboyMom · 01-26-2006, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Jesus

Attack the Bible, infidels.

Pretend that the Bible is flawless. Keep that assumption in mind as you conjure up all big arguments against it. (that means, don't attack the validity of what it says, but attack the concepts it brings forth)

The PoE, the omnipotence paradox, the "math" problem of the Trinity...think of them all, and post them here, please.

Emotional arguments are allowed, but I'd rather focus on the logical errors first.

I'm afraid I don't understand your OP too well. Maybe you should re-phrase and try again.

My main question: why do you believe the bible? Is there something about the bible that would cause a reasonable objective reader to believe it? If so, what?

Plastic Jesus · 01-26-2006, 05:36 PM

"I always find it hard to understand, why an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being had to create anything to please himself?"
Omnimax doesn't mean that you don't have desires. If he has a desire, he (through his omni-maxness) fulfills it.

"Subquestions:
- Was he bored and is this the reason for his creation?"
Maybe.

"- How does his creation please him, if he knows beforehand everything that's going to happen to the last detail?"
This, as well as a few other things, is what I'm going to talk to Calvinists about. Good question.

"A perfect being/creature/force would have no need for anything but himself, any outside influence might even lead to his imperfection."
This is something I thought of as well, but you're arguing against Descartes' god, not a Biblical one.

Plastic Jesus · 01-26-2006, 05:51 PM

"I suspect that the overwheming majority of self-described Christians would both outright reject some purely Biblical theology, and accept some theology that has no Biblical support."
Yes, I agree. But I want to talk about Biblical theology, and not standard Christian theology.

"Yes, you're probably right here, and that's part of, why I'm confused at to the purpose of the OP. Is it pro or con Biblical errancy/inerrancy?"

This isn't pro or con Biblical errancy. It has nothing to do with it, and that's what I meant by "pretend the Bible is flawless". I want to discuss the concepts found in the Bible; I want to know what logical (not textual) inconsistencies are in it.

"'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'

OK. First of all - who are YOU, the author? Second - how do you know
this? Were you there? If not, who told you? Was he there at the creation?"

If I'm not mistaken, Moses was given this knowledge, and he wrote it down. That's what they claim, anyway.

"Its...A BC&H thread!"
Well, my intention was to discuss the Biblical concept of God (or really, any theology within), not the Bible itself. But you're the boss.

"The picture of God (or YHWH or Adonai) in the Bible, especially the Hebrew Scriptures, is not that of an omnipotent or omniscient or omnibenevolent one. That God made the world imperfect, got angry and did things He later regretted."
Okay, so there's another point. God's actions are inconsistant with his attributes, noted.

"The Hebrew Scriptures say that he is the source of good and evil."
Do you have the verse? I recall one verse saying that, but when I checked, "evil" wasn't a good translation, it was disaster.

"See above."
Yes, that may be the explaination how the omnimax God concept arrived, but this doesn't relate to my question.

"Funny thing, the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible."
I know. So are you saying it's perfectly Biblical to say that Jesus was just a prophet/man/supernatural man below God, and that the Holy Ghost is another name for an angel, or God himself?

"Yup. The Biblical era Jews and Christians often cast lots to get some indication of what God wanted them to do, on the assumption that God would influence the roll of the die. That's how Judas' replacement in the 12 was chosen."
Yeah, and I really want to talk to Calvinists about all this, see what they have to say.

Plastic Jesus · 01-26-2006, 06:11 PM

"I'm afraid I don't understand your OP too well. Maybe you should re-phrase and try again."

I'm sorry, I've never been good at explaining myself, so here it is, as simple as I can make it.

I want arguments against Biblical Theology. I want inconsistencies found within that theology.

I don't want arguments involving textual Biblical errancy, ones explaining the lack of evidence for this theology, or ones about how "men just made it up".

Good?

"My main question: why do you believe the bible? Is there something about the bible that would cause a reasonable objective reader to believe it? If so, what?"

Hey, I'm asking the questions around here.

But, to answer, I never said that I believe the Bible. All I'm doing in this thread is asking for all the biggest, best arguments, all in one thread.

Oh, and heh:

"Why would i pretend that the bible is flawless?"
You wouldn't. This thread is for Atheists (found in the title), and all infidels (found in the first line).

Toto · 01-26-2006, 06:27 PM

Sorry - you keep talking about the Bible, but the concerns you have are not actually a part of the Bible. They are Christians' reactions to the Bible - the problem of evil, the Trinity, etc.

Not your fault - we live in a society that is rife with Biblical Illiteracy.

But the answers you want are not the subject of this forum.

I think I'll send this to GRD

Anat · 01-26-2006, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

The Hebrew Scriptures say that he is the source of good and evil.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plastic Jesus

Do you have the verse? I recall one verse saying that, but when I checked, "evil" wasn't a good translation, it was disaster.

I think he means Isaiah 45:5-7:
"I am the LORD, and there is none else, beside Me there is no God; I have girded thee, though thou hast not known Me; That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me; I am the LORD; and there is none else; I form the light, and create darkness; I make peace, and create evil; I am the LORD, that doeth all these things."

In this passage God claims to be the unique, single creator of everything there is, regardless of value. The word translated as 'evil' is r'a which is generic for something that is bad, usually the opposite of tov, good.

Plastic Jesus · 01-26-2006, 07:32 PM

Yes, it does mean bad, or sometimes evil. Seeing as how the opposite of raa' here was shaalowm (which means peace, prosperity, health, wealth; not moral goodness), I think it is taking this verse out of context to mean that God creates "evil", and that it actually means disaster.

EDITED TO ADD:
"In this passage God claims to be the unique, single creator of everything there is, regardless of value."

I disagree. Since I believe that the word means disaster, I think the Bible is claiming that God is the unique, single creator of the physical world.

Jobar · 01-26-2006, 08:03 PM

Plastic Jesus, are you looking for our most difficult questions to ask believers? There's been other threads collecting those. Try Questions
and Hit me with your best shot. There's others, too.

Is that what you're looking for?

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01-26-2006, 05:36 PM	#14
Plastic Jesus Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kentucky, USA Posts: 133	"I always find it hard to understand, why an eternal, omniscient, omnipotent, omnibenevolent being had to create anything to please himself?" Omnimax doesn't mean that you don't have desires. If he has a desire, he (through his omni-maxness) fulfills it. "Subquestions: - Was he bored and is this the reason for his creation?" Maybe. "- How does his creation please him, if he knows beforehand everything that's going to happen to the last detail?" This, as well as a few other things, is what I'm going to talk to Calvinists about. Good question. "A perfect being/creature/force would have no need for anything but himself, any outside influence might even lead to his imperfection." This is something I thought of as well, but you're arguing against Descartes' god, not a Biblical one.

01-26-2006, 05:51 PM	#15
Plastic Jesus Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kentucky, USA Posts: 133	"I suspect that the overwheming majority of self-described Christians would both outright reject some purely Biblical theology, and accept some theology that has no Biblical support." Yes, I agree. But I want to talk about Biblical theology, and not standard Christian theology. "Yes, you're probably right here, and that's part of, why I'm confused at to the purpose of the OP. Is it pro or con Biblical errancy/inerrancy?" This isn't pro or con Biblical errancy. It has nothing to do with it, and that's what I meant by "pretend the Bible is flawless". I want to discuss the concepts found in the Bible; I want to know what logical (not textual) inconsistencies are in it. "'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.' OK. First of all - who are YOU, the author? Second - how do you know this? Were you there? If not, who told you? Was he there at the creation?" If I'm not mistaken, Moses was given this knowledge, and he wrote it down. That's what they claim, anyway. "Its...A BC&H thread!" Well, my intention was to discuss the Biblical concept of God (or really, any theology within), not the Bible itself. But you're the boss. "The picture of God (or YHWH or Adonai) in the Bible, especially the Hebrew Scriptures, is not that of an omnipotent or omniscient or omnibenevolent one. That God made the world imperfect, got angry and did things He later regretted." Okay, so there's another point. God's actions are inconsistant with his attributes, noted. "The Hebrew Scriptures say that he is the source of good and evil." Do you have the verse? I recall one verse saying that, but when I checked, "evil" wasn't a good translation, it was disaster. "See above." Yes, that may be the explaination how the omnimax God concept arrived, but this doesn't relate to my question. "Funny thing, the trinity is not mentioned in the Bible." I know. So are you saying it's perfectly Biblical to say that Jesus was just a prophet/man/supernatural man below God, and that the Holy Ghost is another name for an angel, or God himself? "Yup. The Biblical era Jews and Christians often cast lots to get some indication of what God wanted them to do, on the assumption that God would influence the roll of the die. That's how Judas' replacement in the 12 was chosen." Yeah, and I really want to talk to Calvinists about all this, see what they have to say.

01-26-2006, 06:11 PM	#16
Plastic Jesus Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kentucky, USA Posts: 133	"I'm afraid I don't understand your OP too well. Maybe you should re-phrase and try again." I'm sorry, I've never been good at explaining myself, so here it is, as simple as I can make it. I want arguments against Biblical Theology. I want inconsistencies found within that theology. I don't want arguments involving textual Biblical errancy, ones explaining the lack of evidence for this theology, or ones about how "men just made it up". Good? "My main question: why do you believe the bible? Is there something about the bible that would cause a reasonable objective reader to believe it? If so, what?" Hey, I'm asking the questions around here. But, to answer, I never said that I believe the Bible. All I'm doing in this thread is asking for all the biggest, best arguments, all in one thread. Oh, and heh: "Why would i pretend that the bible is flawless?" You wouldn't. This thread is for Atheists (found in the title), and all infidels (found in the first line).

01-26-2006, 06:27 PM	#17
Toto Contributor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Los Angeles area Posts: 40,549	Sorry - you keep talking about the Bible, but the concerns you have are not actually a part of the Bible. They are Christians' reactions to the Bible - the problem of evil, the Trinity, etc. Not your fault - we live in a society that is rife with Biblical Illiteracy. But the answers you want are not the subject of this forum. I think I'll send this to GRD

01-26-2006, 07:32 PM	#19
Plastic Jesus Regular Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Kentucky, USA Posts: 133	Yes, it does mean bad, or sometimes evil. Seeing as how the opposite of raa' here was shaalowm (which means peace, prosperity, health, wealth; not moral goodness), I think it is taking this verse out of context to mean that God creates "evil", and that it actually means disaster. EDITED TO ADD: "In this passage God claims to be the unique, single creator of everything there is, regardless of value." I disagree. Since I believe that the word means disaster, I think the Bible is claiming that God is the unique, single creator of the physical world.

01-26-2006, 08:03 PM	#20
Jobar Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: secularcafe.org Posts: 9,525	Plastic Jesus, are you looking for our most difficult questions to ask believers? There's been other threads collecting those. Try Questions and Hit me with your best shot. There's others, too. Is that what you're looking for?

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