mike_decock

[Mod Mode]

This doesn't like like BC&H to me, either. Let's try Non-Abrahamic Religions.

-Mike...

Gunnaheave

I think that Christians do (frequently) falsify their history a great deal. But I'm not sure this means that their religions are essentially pagan. The degree to which this would invalidate their beliefs depends largely on the degree to which the denial of real history is central to the particular beliefs of any given Christian.

BTW: I am curious, rebels, do you adhere to any particular Native American beliefs, or do you reject them. What traditions are you most familiar with?

beanpie

I humbly offer my apology for, my zealousness.

Doctor X

No need to apologize. One just has to be careful with such reconstructions.

--J.D.

catalyst

Some references in those articles might be nice. Also, as at least one article refers to the Cherokee treaty of 1866 being signed by a chief, instead of delagates appointed by the Cherokee nation, it appears as if their reserach was a little spotty.

Furthermore, some Native American traditions do not even have a word for God, which runs rather contrary to most interpetations of Abrahamic tradition.

Waning Moon Conrad

"Our belief is that the Great Spirit has created all things. Not just mankind but animals, all plants, all rocks, all on earth and amongst the stars with true soul. For us, all life is holy. All of nature is within us and we are part of all nature." Chief White Cloud

"What is life? It is the flash of a firefly in the night." Crowfoot

"In the life of the Indian there was only one inevitable duty- the duty of prayer - the daily recognition of the Unseen and the Eternal." Ohiyesa

The Chief White Cloud statement proves that he had a concept of one great spirit which created everything or that he had had contact with whites, soldiers, settlers, wagon trains, wagon train guides and missionaries and hence knew something of Christian thought and monotheism and thought that it had merit, or that he was saying to whites what he thought they wanted to hear in the hope of generating empathy between his people and them.

In itself it does not constitute proof of contact with Islam.

Don't forget that Judaism is monotheistic also. Why not see it as evidence that Jews were active in the Americas a thousand years before Columbus?

Crowfoot's statement sounds like a pragmatic recognition that life is short. Nothing particularly Islamic about it. It reminds me of some statements about the shortness of life made in Buddhism but Buddhism does not have a monopoly on the capacity to see and state the obvious.

The duty of prayer? The daily recognition of the unseen and eternal? Tribes people with shamanic religions often seem to have a profound reverence for nature and life. I read somewhere that a third of the waking time in a typical Australian Aboriginals life was spent on religious/spiritual practice.

No Islamic monopoly there either.

Waning Moon Conrad

Can you define pagan please?

premjan

normally means nature-worshipper.

Waning Moon Conrad

Yeah but I want Rebel's definition of pagan.

Gunnaheave

Actually, it doesn't look like Rebels' are coming back.

I am continually amazed, btw, both at the tendancy to collapse different traditions as though they were all part of one great N.A. belief, and at the tendancy to idealize N.A. life. You would think that they were all praying all day long. It's just so easy for anyone, white or native, to fantasize whatever they want about the Indian past. It all gets quite silly sometimes.