TedM

In the Imagining a Historical Jesus thread, one of the issues Amaleq13 and I have been discussing is whether Paul's Jesus resembles the Jesus found in Q1, the hypothetical first layer of the hypothetical Q used in the GMatthew and GLuke gospels. Is the Q1 Jesus an entirely different person from Paul's Jesus? Does he resember him at all? Are the teachings similar?

It is true that with a few debatable exceptions (1 Cor 7:10, 9:14, 11:23), Paul doesn’t give credit to Jesus for specific teachings, nor clearly for even being a teacher. However, Paul does point his readers to the life of Christ as an example to follow, as well as his own life as an imitation of Christ‘s:


Rom 15.1ff: "Let each of us please his neighbor for his good, to his edification. 3 For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written, "The reproaches of those who reproached Thee fell upon Me."

Philp 2.5: "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,"

I Cor 11.1: "Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

Given these appeals to looking to Christ as an example, one might conclude that Paul’s teachings reflect the teachings of Christ himself. One could certainly object however, on the grounds of insufficient evidence. Regardless the answer to this question, my intention here is to list any teachings or examples of ‘imitation’ by Paul that appear to relate to the Q1 sayings. The purpose is for comparison purposes, and discussion.

Here is a description of Mack’s Q1 from this site http://www.cygnus-study.com/pageq.html :This post lists the Q1 sayings (in black) and passages in Paul’s authentic epistles (in Royalblue, NIV) that have a related teaching or message, as best as I can determine.


JESUS' TEACHING

{QS7}Introduction [Luke 6:20]
Seeing the crowds, he said to his disciples,

No match found


{QS8}On those who are fortunate [Luke 6:20-23]
"How fortunate are the poor; they have God's kingdom. How fortunate the hungry; they will be fed. How fortunate are those who are crying; they will laugh."

2 Cor 1:3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort

2 Cor 7:6 But God, who comforts the downcast..

1 Thess 2:11 For you know that we dealt with each of you as a father deals with his own children, 12encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.


{QS9}On responding to reproach [Luke 6:27-35]
"I am telling you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone slaps you on the cheek, offer your other cheek as well. If anyone grabs your coat, let him have your shirt as well. Give to anyone who asks, and if anyone takes away your belongings, do not ask to have them back. As you want people to treat you, do the same to them."
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even tax collectors love those who love them, do they not? And if you embrace only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Doesn't everybody do that? If you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even wrongdoers lend to their kind because they expect to be repaid. Instead, love your enemies, do good and lend without expecting anything in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of God. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good; he sends rain on the just and on the unjust."

Rom 12:14-21 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. 17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"says the Lord. 20On the contrary: "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.


{QS10}On making judgments [Luke 6:36-38]
"Be merciful even as your Father is merciful. Don't judge and you won't be judged. For the standard you use [for judging] will be the standard used against you."

Romans 2:1You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things.


{QS11}On teacher and students [Luke 6:39-40]
"Can the blind lead the blind? Won't they both fall into a pit? A student is not better than his teacher. It is enough for a student to be like his teacher."

1 Cor 4:15 Even though you have ten thousand guardians in Christ, you do not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16Therefore I urge you to imitate me. 17For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.


{QS12}On hypocrisy [Luke 6:41-42]
"How can you look for the splinter in your brother's eye and not notice the stick in your own eye? How can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the splinter in your eye,' when you do not see the stick in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the stick from your own eye, and then you can see to remove the splinter that is in your brother's eye."

Romans2:19 If you are convinced that you are a guide for the blind, a light for those who are in the dark, 20an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of infants, because you have in the law the embodiment of knowledge and truth— 21you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23You who brag about the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law?


{QS13}On integrity [Luke 6:43-45]
"A good tree does not bear rotten fruit; a rotten tree does not bear good fruit. Are figs gathered from thorns, or grapes from thistles? Every tree is known by its fruit. The good man produces good things from his store of goods and treasures; and the evil man evil things. For the mouth speaks from a full heart."

Col 1:10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

Rom 10:10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.


{QS14}On practical obedience [Luke 6:46-49]
"Why do you call me 'Master, master,' and not do what I say? Everyone who hears my words and does them is like a man who built a house on rock. The rain fell, a torrent broke against the house, and it did not fall, for it had a rock foundation. But everyone who hears my words and does not do them is like a man who built a house on sand. The rain came, the torrent broke against it, and it collapsed. The ruin of that house was great."

Rom 2:13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.



INSTRUCTIONS FOR THE JESUS MOVEMENT

{QS19}On becoming a follower of Jesus [Luke 9:57-62]
When someone said to him, "I will follow you wherever you go," Jesus answered, "Foxes have dens, and birds of the sky have nests, but the son of man has nowhere to lay his head."
When another said, "Let me first go and bury my father," Jesus said, "Leave the dead to bury their dead."
Yet another said, "I will follow you, sir, but first let me say goodbye to my family." Jesus said to him, "No one who puts his hand on the plow and then looks back is fit for the kingdom of God."

Phil 3:7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Romans 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

1 Cor 7:29 What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they had none; 30those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not; those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away. 32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord.


{QS20}On working for the kingdom of God [Luke 10:1-11]
He said, "The harvest is abundant, but the workers are few; beg therefore the master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest."
"Go. Look, I send you out as lambs among wolves."
"Do not carry money, or bag, or sandals, or staff; and do not greet anyone on the road."
"Whatever house you enter, say, 'Peace be to this house!' And if a child of peace is there, your greeting will be received [literally, 'your peace will rest upon him']. But if not, let your peace return to you."
"And stay in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not go from house to house. And is you enter a town and they receive you, eat what is set before you. Pay attention to the sick and say to them, 'God's kingdom has come near to you. But if you enter a town and they do not receive you, as you leave, shake the dust from your feet and say, 'Nevertheless, be sure of this, the realm of God has come to you.'"

Rom 12:18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.

Paul greets his readers with peace in all of the authentic epistles:

Rom 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
1 Cor 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ
2 Cor 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Gal 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ,
Phil 1:2 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Col 1:2 To the holy and faithful brothers in Christ at Colosse: Grace and peace to you from God our Father.
1 Thess 1:1 Paul, Silas and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace and peace to you.

1 Cor9:1 Am I not an apostle? Have I not seen Jesus our Lord? Are you not the result of my work in the Lord?….3This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4Don't we have the right to food and drink?

1 Cor 10:27 If some unbeliever invites you to a meal and you want to go, eat whatever is put before you without raising questions of conscience.

1 Cor 9:13 Don't you know that those who work in the temple get their food from the temple, and those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel



CONFIDENCE IN THE FATHER'S CARE

{QS26}How to pray [Luke 11:1-4]
"When you pray say, 'Father, may your name be holy. May your rule take place. Give us each day our daily bread. Pardon our debts, for we ourselves pardon everyone indebted to us. And do not bring us to trial [into a trying situation].'"

Paul doesn’t repeat this prayer, but he does speak to each issue within:

1 Thess 4:8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.

Rom 15:12 And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

1 Cor 16:22 If anyone does not love the Lord—a curse be on him. Come, O Lord[a]!

Phillip 4:19 And my God will meet all your needs according to his glorious riches in Christ Jesus.

Col 3:13 Bear with each other and forgive whatever grievances you may have against one another. Forgive as the Lord forgave you.

1 Cor 7:5 Do not deprive each other except by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.

1 Cor 10:13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.

2 Thess 3:1 Finally, brothers, pray for us that the message of the Lord may spread rapidly and be honored, just as it was with you. 2And pray that we may be delivered from wicked and evil men, for not everyone has faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, and he will strengthen and protect you from the evil one.


{QS27}Confidence in asking [Luke 11:9-13]
"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened for you."
"For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks the door will be opened."
"What father of yours, if the son asks for a loaf of bread, will give him a stone, or if he asks for a fish will give him a snake?"
"Therefore, if you, although you are not good, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the father above give good things to those who ask him!"

Philp 4:6 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.



ON ANXIETY AND SPEAKING OUT

{QS35}On speaking out [Luke 12:2-3]
"Nothing is hidden that will not be made known, or secret that will not come to light."
"What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light. And what you hear as a whisper, proclaim on the housetops."

I think this is about secrets of sin becoming known, given the context.

1 Cor 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait till the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of men's hearts. At that time each will receive his praise from God.


{QS36}On fear [Luke 12:4-7]
"Don't be afraid of those who can kill the body, but cant kill the soul."
"Can't you buy five sparrows for two cents? Not one of them will fall to the ground without God knowing about it. Even the hairs of your head are all numbered. So don't be afraid. You are worth more than many sparrows."

1 Cor 5:1 Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands. 2Meanwhile we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, 3because when we are clothed, we will not be found naked. 4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life.

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.] And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children.


{QS38}Foolish possessions [Luke 12:13-21]
Someone from the crowd said to him, "Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance with me" But he said to him, "Sir, who made me your judge or lawyer?
He told them a parable, saying, "The land of a rich man produced in abundance, and he thought to himself, "What should I do, for I have nowhere to store my crops?' Then he said, 'I will do this. I will put down my barns and build larger ones, and there I will store all my grain and my goods. And I will say to my soul, Soul, you have ample goods stored up for many years. Take it easy. Eat, drink, and be merry." But God said to him, 'Foolish man! This very night you will have to give back your soul, and the things you produced, whose will they be? That is what happens to the one who stores up treasure for himself and is not rich in the sight of God."

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, 18because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men.

1 Cor 15:32 If I fought wild beasts in Ephesus for merely human reasons, what have I gained? If the dead are not raised, "Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die." 33Do not be misled.


{QS39}On food and clothing [Luke 12:22-31]
"I am telling you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat, or about your body, what you will wear. Isn't life more than food, and the body more than clothing?"
"Think of the ravens. They do not plant, harvest, or store grain in barns, and God feeds them. Aren't you worth more than the birds? Which one of you can add a single day to your life by worrying?"
"And why do you worry about clothing? Think of the way lilies grow. They do not work or spin But even Solomon in all his splendor was not as magnificent. If God puts beautiful clothes on the grass that is in the field today and tomorrow is thrown into a furnace, won't he put clothes on you, faint hearts?"
"So, don't worry, thinking, 'What will we eat,' or 'What will we drink,' or, What will we wear?' For everybody in the whole world does that, and your father knows that you need these things."
"Instead, make sure of his rule over you, and all these things will be yours as well."

2 Cor 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work.

Phil 4:56 Do not be anxious about anything, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.


{QS40}On heavenly treasure [Luke 12:33-34]
"Sell your possessions and give to charity [alms]. Store up treasure for yourselves in a heavenly account, where moths and rust do not consume, and where thieves cannot break in and steal."
"For where your treasure is, there your heart will also be. "


Paul’s life is an example of sacrifice of worldly possessions for sake of his faith:
1 Cor 15:23..I have worked much harder, been in prison more frequently, been flogged more severely, and been exposed to death again and again. 24Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. 25Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was stoned, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, 26I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my own countrymen, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false brothers. 27I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked… 12: 10That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.

Paul encouraged giving to the poor:

2 Cor 9:6 Remember this: Whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows generously will also reap generously. 7Each man should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver. 8And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. 9As it is written:
"He has scattered abroad his gifts to the poor; his righteousness endures forever."[a] 10Now he who supplies seed to the sower and bread for food will also supply and increase your store of seed and will enlarge the harvest of your righteousness. 11You will be made rich in every way so that you can be generous on every occasion, and through us your generosity will result in thanksgiving to God. 12This service that you perform is not only supplying the needs of God's people but is also overflowing in many expressions of thanks to God. 13Because of the service by which you have proved yourselves, men will praise God for the obedience that accompanies your confession of the gospel of Christ, and for your generosity in sharing with them and with everyone else. 14And in their prayers for you their hearts will go out to you, because of the surpassing grace God has given you. 15Thanks be to God for his indescribable gift!

Col 3:2 Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. 3For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. 4When Christ, who is your[a] life, appears, then you also will appear with him in glory. 5Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires and greed, which is idolatry.



PARABLES OF THE KINGDOM

{QS46}The mustard and the yeast [Luke 13:18-21]
He said, "What is the kingdom of God like? To what should I compare it? It is like a grain of mustard which a man took and sowed in his garden. It grew and became a tree, and the birds of the air made nests in its branches."
He also said, "The kingdom of God is like yeast which a woman took and hid in three measures of flour until it leavened the whole mass."

Rom 16:25 Now to him who is able to establish you by my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,



THE TRUE FOLLOWERS OF JESUS

{QS50}On humility [Luke 14:11; 18:14]
"Everyone who glorifies himself will be humiliated, and the one that humbles himself will be praised."

Philp 2:1 If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, 2then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose. 3Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit, but in humility consider others better than yourselves.

Rom 12:16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited.


{QS51}The great supper [Luke 14:16-24]
"A man once gave a great banquet and invited many. At the time for the banquet he sent his servant to say to those who had been invited, 'Please come, for everything is now ready.' But they all began to make excuses. The first said to him, 'I've bought a farm and I must go and see it. Please excuse me.' And another said, "I've just bought five pair of oxen and I need to check them out. Please excuse me.' And another said, 'I've just married a woman and so I can't come.' The servant came and reported this to his master. Then the owner in anger said to his servant, 'Go out quickly to the streets of the town and bring in as many people as you find.' And the servant went out into the streets and brought together everybody he could find. That way the house was filled with guests."

Rom 15:8 For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs 9so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy..

Rom 11:11 ..Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles..12 …their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles…25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in.

Rom 9:23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25As he says in Hosea: "I will call them 'my people' who are not my people; and I will call her 'my loved one' who is not my loved one,"

1 Cor 1:26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong

1 Cor 12:13 For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink


{QS52}On the cost of being a disciple [Luke 14:26-27; 17:33]
"Whoever does not hate his father and mother will not be able to learn from me. Whoever does not hate his son and daughter cannot belong to my school."
"Whoever does not accept his cross {bear up under condemnation] and so become my follower, cannot be one of my students."
"Whoever tries to protect his life will lose it; but whoever loses his life on account of me will preserve it."

Same as for QS19.

Also Gal 6:14 May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.


{QS53}Savorless salt [Luke 14:34-35]
"Salt is good; but if salt loses its taste , how can it be restored? It is not good for either the land or the manure pile. People just throw it out."

No match found



So, what do you think? How similar do you think the teachings are? Is it possible or likely that the sect or founder of Q1 sayings was independent of Paul and/or vice versa, or not? Any comments, additions, etc.. are welcome.

ted

yalla

TedM:"Here is a description of Mack’s Q1 from this site http://www.cygnus-study.com/pageq.html :
Quote:
Q1 (the bold) is what Biblical scholars are putting as the very earliest writings of the followers of Jesus of Nazareth."

I strongly suspect Q, in it's entirety, is a convenient invention by apologists so that statements such as that quoted above can be made, thus giving the appearance of an early source for JC.

The KISS/Ockham principle, one of author "Luke" or "Matthew" copied from the other, should be the default position.

If one does not presume the existence of "Q1, the hypothetical first layer of the hypothetical Q used in the GMatthew and GLuke gospels." then all of the post above that follows the quote becomes redundant.

IMO the case for Q needs to be established first.

TedM

Hi Yalla,

My understanding is the opposite, with those who accept the supernatural Jesus being most reluctant to embrace Q, and those who reject the supernatural being the ones most embracing of it.

I don't know enough to argue one way or the other.

To me, since we know the alleged Q1 sayings exist at the very latest in Matthew and Luke, the need to establish a case for Q1 or Q itself depends on what comparisons one wants to make. I think the comparisons beg the most interesting questions if one does assume the sayings existed at the same time as Paul or very soon thereafter. In such a case one might ask what is implied--if anything--by their co-existance. If the sayings all came decades later, then comparisons could still be made, and one might ask to what extent Paul influenced them.

thanks for your thoughts.

ted

Clivedurdle

As a mythicist, doesn't that mean I accept the supernatural Jesus? I have big problems with Q, doesn't it fail Ockham as an unnecessary step?

Looking at the above comparisons , don't they show a clear dependence of the Gospels on Paul? Are they expansions and different ways of making the same points, but from the perspective of the historicist heresy?

yalla

Gidday TedM,

All of alleged Q is in "Matthew".
And, of course,also in "Luke'.
It is what is common to both that does not come from "Mark". And even that definition can be bent when needed.

We both know this.

Thus: [1] either one copied the other [presumably "Luke" copying "Matthew"] or [2] both copied a completely speculated hypothetical unknown document.

Option [2] allows apologists to further speculate that evidence re JC may predate "Mark" [as in your quote]. Good old standby "oral tradition'' can then be utilised to create the impression that the legends go back to JC himself. Apologists can create all sorts of scenarios based on this completely unverified assumption.
By extracting little bits from the big bits they can postulate myriad groups and communities running around in the early days. For example Mack has various groups in Galilee during the 30s and 40s...5 groups in fact, 3 created by splitting the big bits, 1 of which he calls the "community of Q". It's a neat trick.

This is much more preferable to admitting that option [1] involves not only admitting that "Matthew" and "Luke" copied "Mark'', a late [post 70CE at the earliest] non-local, Gk. speaking anonymous writer, who is admitted not to be an eye-witness, as the first recorder [or inventor] of JC, but also that that #3 copied # 2. Everybody is copying someone else cos they know nothing themselves ["Mark" uses the Tanakh].

Not a credible scenario for faith.

Q was invented to avoid admitting option 1.

TedM: "To me, since we know the alleged Q1 sayings exist at the very latest in Matthew and Luke,..."

Actually take away the Q hypothesis and "very latest'' becomes "first'' in "Matthew". Just part of the material he wrote.

Try analysing it that way.

Edited to add:
Using the Jesus Seminar's 5 gospels handy references to their version of Q I found that MOST of the Q stuff is directly or indirectly based on the Tanakh.
Just like most of the "M" stuff [stuff peculiar to "Matthew"].
What a coincidence.

Try it for yourself.

Vinnie

No, Q passes completely. The double tradition material has to be explained. Either there was a common shared text between GMt and GLk or one text knew the other. Now some Q scholars think that the nature and scope of Q can be ascertained through studying the double tradition material closely and they feel they can even recosntruct this material into stages.

Parallels do not show literary dependence.

This is a great topic by the way!

But there are some limitations.

Aside from "was there a Q and even if there was a Q, can we get to Q1" we have to also ask: "how generic are Q1 sayings?" Is Paul paraphrasing known Jesus material or is he appealing to common knowledge//sentiments?. Convention or quotation? Take just one of your earliest examples:

""""""But God, who comforts the downcast.."""""""

How generic is such a view? If we had a large enough sayings listing of any Jewish teacher in the first century world, would we find these same parallels? Or are they Jesus specific? And if Jesus was just like other teachers, how do you tell when he is being quoted or not with vague parallels?

There are of course ways but prima faci surface parallels are not the answer. You have to dig into the context of each letter and instance and do some work. Wenham's book on Paul does try to do this in some areas...for good or bad.

Vinnie

TedM

thanks.

I agree. This was an amateur's attempt to find the similarities, and put them out there for discussion. Just how similar are they? Some are very generic, and I would expect them in other teachings. Others seem possibly revolutionary--such as blessing one's enemies--so I wonder how independant they are? Others seem very specific to specific teachings: Paul's defence of his apostleship have some details that seem to match the saying regarding how an apostle is to behave on his missions in ways that seem more specific than what I'd expect from generic teachings... But, that's me. How about others here? How many of these are in the Tanakh? Why don't the gospels match Paul's writings more word-for word--is it because Paul is paraphrasing Jesus or the writers are paraphrasing Paul or neither, etc...?

ted

Vinnie

im going to be posting blocks from Wenham recently for exploration and discussion so stay tuned

TedM

Great! Thanks Vinnie. I"m curious as to what he has to say in general about the whole Q-gospel-Paul issue and as far as the thread topic is concerned especially the alleged 'earliest' sayings.

Do you know much about Wenham? (I don't) Do you know how unbiased (possible?) scholars have received his work? I wonder how he would respond to Doherty?

ted

yalla

Gidday again TedM,

I have just taken the first few of your alleged Q quotes and checked the footnotes in my RSV to see if any of them are based directly or indirectly on the Tanakh.

It's way past my bedtime so I only did "Luke" 6...20-23..27-35...36-40.
If the RSV didn't have a FN for "Luke" I checked the FN for the "Matthew" parallel.
If it gave me Paul I went to that section and got the FN for that.


I got these Tanakh references:
Isaiah 53:10-12 ...Proverbs 3.7 ... Prov.20.22 ... Prov25.21-22 ... Isaiah55.1-2... "The Golden Rule" and a couple I didn't bother looking at viz. Lev19.18, Deut32.35 [the rule?]
In addition "Luke" 6.36-40 see "Mark" 4.24 [Now how did that get into Q?...Oh I know "overlap"].

So IMO it's pretty durn clear that "Matthew/Luke'' got stuff from the Tanakh and "Mark'', and Paul used the Tanakh and maybe they cross-fertilized but usually either thematically or to the point of verbatim the original source is the Tanakh.
I'm pretty confident that if you traced the rest of your alleged Q stuff you would find the Tanakh lurking nearby most of the time.
Too often to be coincidence!

Why not try that approach and see how much confluence you get?

And IF I'm right then we can dispense with an unnecessary Q hypothesis and see that the Tanakh is the well spring and these guys, particularly "Luke" and "Matthew", got most of their ideas and words from their predeceessors.

There weren't no Q.