Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Duvduv · 12-23-2012, 11:53 AM

Where is the actual evidence for mass suicide beyond the speculation of Yadin based on Josephus?? Did anyone find human bones of hundreds of people?
If the Romans built a ramp for 15,000 soldiers to conquer 960 men, women and children, would you wonder why they would bother to do THAT instead of starving them out?!
The claims of Josephus have been questioned many times, not unlike the claims of the Qumran sect believers in relation to the DSS.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

The Jews at Masada (as presented by "Josephus") could have easily been starved out instead of there being a ramp built to attack them. But of course no remnants of the suicides exists for 960 people or even remnants of 15,000 Roman attackers exist.
.

Your claims are baseless

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masada

an expedition led by Israeli archeologist Yigael Yadin

The Roman ramp still stands on the western side and can be climbed on foot.

The meter-high circumvallation wall that the Romans built around Masada can be seen, together with eleven barracks for the Roman soldiers just outside this wall.

Josephas numbers have always been in question and are nothing new. It does not discount the historicity of these events at Masada. You will need credible evidence there wasnt a suicide.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

If the Romans built a ramp for 15,000 soldiers to conquer 960 men, women and children, would you wonder why they would bother to do THAT instead of starving them out?!
The claims of Josephus have been questioned many times, not unlike the claims of the Qumran sect believers in relation to the DSS.

Stop it! your out of line.

The ramp is attested and not in question.

Quote:

Did anyone find human bones of hundreds of people?

The place was occupied for hundreds of years afterwards, should they find them?

Quote:

Where is the actual evidence for mass suicide beyond the speculation of Yadin based on Josephus??

What evidence should there be?

Duvduv · 12-23-2012, 12:40 PM

I NEVER said there was no ramp. I simply said that the claim of a mass suicide and its related stuff is a fairy tale concocted by "Josephus".

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I NEVER said there was no ramp. I simply said that the claim of a mass suicide and its related stuff is a fairy tale concocted by "Josephus".

And you dont have a credible source to back your claim other then opinion.

Duvduv · 12-23-2012, 01:13 PM

I think you are confused. If there was a suicide, it is up to those who claim there was to PROVE IT! Saying it is insufficient. Even Yadin couldn't prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I NEVER said there was no ramp. I simply said that the claim of a mass suicide and its related stuff is a fairy tale concocted by "Josephus".

And you dont have a credible source to back your claim other then opinion.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Duvduv

I think you are confused. If there was a suicide, it is up to those who claim there was to PROVE IT! Saying it is insufficient. Even Yadin couldn't prove it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by outhouse

And you dont have a credible source to back your claim other then opinion.

Oh so you dont have any credible sources, not a single historian who even questions this?

Toto · 12-23-2012, 02:23 PM

outhouse - can you learn to google?

Is the Truth About Masada Less Romantic?

Quote:

However at least one Israeli academic, Nachman Ben-Yehuda, 1 suggests that the truth may be somewhat less romantic and heroic.

“When we carefully examine ……. the Great Revolt and Masada, a portrait of heroism …… is simply not provided. On the contrary. The narrative conveys the story of a doomed (and questionable) revolt, of a majestic failure and destruction of the Second Temple and of Jerusalem, of large-scale massacres of the Jews, of different factions of Jews fighting and killing each other, of collective suicide (an act not viewed favourably by the Jewish faith) by a group of terrorists and assassins whose “fighting spirit” may have been questionable.” 2

Understandably views such as these have raised the hackles of many Jewish historians. But is Ben-Yehuda’s interpretation of events correct? How much of the Masada story is history and how much is myth?

...

Read more there about the varying interpretations by credentialed scholars.

The Credibility of Josephus

Quote:

According to Josephus the death of the 960 inhabitants of Masada and the destruction of the palace and the possessions were the premeditated acts of all the people acting in unison. But the archaeological remains cannot be reconciled with this view. Josephus says that all the possessions were gathered together in one large pile and set on fire but archaeology shows many piles and many fires (in various rooms of the casemate wall in some of the storerooms in the western palace etc.). Josephus says that Eleazar ordered his men to destroy everything except the foodstuffs but archaeology shows that many storerooms which contained provisions were burnt. (In addition Josephus reports that the Romans found arms sufficient for ten thousand men as well as iron brass and lead -- why weren't these valuable commodities destroyed?) Josephus says that the last surviving Jew set fire to the palace but archaeology shows that all the public buildings had been set ablaze. Josephus implies that all the murders took place in the palace (unless the women and children after being killed obliged their menfolk and the narrator by marching to the palace) but the northern palace is too small for an assembly of almost a thousand people.

If you can't do any more that exchange taunts about not having sources with other posters, I will close this thread.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

outhouse - can you learn to google?

Is the Truth About Masada Less Romantic?

Quote:

However at least one Israeli academic, Nachman Ben-Yehuda, 1 suggests that the truth may be somewhat less romantic and heroic.

“When we carefully examine ……. the Great Revolt and Masada, a portrait of heroism …… is simply not provided. On the contrary. The narrative conveys the story of a doomed (and questionable) revolt, of a majestic failure and destruction of the Second Temple and of Jerusalem, of large-scale massacres of the Jews, of different factions of Jews fighting and killing each other, of collective suicide (an act not viewed favourably by the Jewish faith) by a group of terrorists and assassins whose “fighting spirit” may have been questionable.” 2

Understandably views such as these have raised the hackles of many Jewish historians. But is Ben-Yehuda’s interpretation of events correct? How much of the Masada story is history and how much is myth?

...

Read more there about the varying interpretations by credentialed scholars.

The Credibility of Josephus

Quote:

According to Josephus the death of the 960 inhabitants of Masada and the destruction of the palace and the possessions were the premeditated acts of all the people acting in unison. But the archaeological remains cannot be reconciled with this view. Josephus says that all the possessions were gathered together in one large pile and set on fire but archaeology shows many piles and many fires (in various rooms of the casemate wall in some of the storerooms in the western palace etc.). Josephus says that Eleazar ordered his men to destroy everything except the foodstuffs but archaeology shows that many storerooms which contained provisions were burnt. (In addition Josephus reports that the Romans found arms sufficient for ten thousand men as well as iron brass and lead -- why weren't these valuable commodities destroyed?) Josephus says that the last surviving Jew set fire to the palace but archaeology shows that all the public buildings had been set ablaze. Josephus implies that all the murders took place in the palace (unless the women and children after being killed obliged their menfolk and the narrator by marching to the palace) but the northern palace is too small for an assembly of almost a thousand people.

If you can't do any more that exchange taunts about not having sources with other posters, I will close this thread.

This is all off topic, with duv derailing this thread. Are you using double standards here? You require me to source everything, and im happy to do so.

I asked for sources for his personal opposing view, and I am still waiting.

I would also ask you to do more then google, please try and read the whole article before jumping to conclusions.

Ben did not discount the suicide, and his version only slightly different then Josephas.

I asked for credible opposing views, you have supplied one, WHICH I already read prior and know well. This isnt even a reflection of mainstream historians, and I have no problem with his work. It was decent.

And had you paid better attention, I have never claimed Josephus as 100% reliable or historical. :constern01:

Toto · 12-23-2012, 04:46 PM

o -

You seem to have participated in the change of subject from your OP, which posed a hypothetical question that probably cannot be answered.

The question now is whether there was a mass suicide, not just some people who committed suicide. You earlier claimed that "Josephas historicity is not in question here at all." I think this is clearly wrong. There are questions.

You also claimed "These are not 4 philosophies, they are 4 known groups that did exist. And zealots were not a tiny group of militants. They would have constituted a large portion of Judaism exceeding all other groups. "

Josephus did talk about 4 of what he called philosophies. The accuracy of this claim has been questioned. I know of no support for your claim that the zealots were a large proportion of Jews.

BJ 2 "For there are three philosophical sects among the Jews" Just before this, Josephus had described Judas the Galilean as "This man was a teacher of a peculiar sect of his own, and was not at all like the rest of those their leaders."

Ant 18

Quote:

2. The Jews had for a great while had three sects of philosophy peculiar to themselves; the sect of the Essens, and the sect of the Sadducees, and the third sort of opinions was that of those called Pharisees; of which sects, although I have already spoken in the second book of the Jewish War, yet will I a little touch upon them now. . . .

6. But of the fourth sect of Jewish philosophy, Judas the Galilean was the author. These men agree in all other things with the Pharisaic notions; but they have an inviolable attachment to liberty, and say that God is to be their only Ruler and Lord. They also do not value dying any kinds of death, nor indeed do they heed the deaths of their relations and friends, nor can any such fear make them call any man lord. And since this immovable resolution of theirs is well known to a great many, I shall speak no further about that matter; nor am I afraid that any thing I have said of them should be disbelieved, but rather fear, that what I have said is beneath the resolution they show when they undergo pain. And it was in Gessius Florus's time that the nation began to grow mad with this distemper, who was our procurator, and who occasioned the Jews to go wild with it by the abuse of his authority, and to make them revolt from the Romans. And these are the sects of Jewish philosophy.

If you would lay out a coherent statement of your claims and supporting evidence, it would help avoid these pointless exchanges of questions for sources. Duvduv has not always been good about citing his sources, but actually has a better track record than you for accuracy.

outhouse · 12-23-2012, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toto

I know of no support for your claim that the zealots were a large proportion of Jews.

Then please, use google.

Most Galileans, less the Hellenistic Roman communities, were often labeled as Zealots

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galilean

Generically, a Galilean is an inhabitant of Galilee. Galileans (or Galilæans) were also the members of a fanatical sect (Zealots), followers of Judas of Galilee, who fiercely resented the taxation of the Romans, and whose violence contributed to induce the latter to vow the extermination of the whole race.

Quote:

The question now is whether there was a mass suicide, not just some people who committed suicide. You earlier claimed that "Josephas historicity is not in question here at all." I think this is clearly wrong. There are questions.

Only regarding the context of Masada, was my statement made.

Ive made it perfcetly clear I do not follow a inerrant Josephus

Thread Tools	Search this Thread
Show Printable Version	Search this Thread: Advanced Search

12-23-2012, 12:40 PM	#23
Duvduv Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: USA Posts: 4,095	I NEVER said there was no ramp. I simply said that the claim of a mass suicide and its related stuff is a fairy tale concocted by "Josephus".

Freethought & Rationalism Archive

The archives are read only.