Chris Weimer

One author can not be used for a majority understanding. Likewise, not all democrats agree, but you can find somewhat of a consensus. I was asking a serious question about the understanding of the Biblical writers.

Edit: Moreover, Malachi alone cannot tell us when this idea came about, how prevalent it was, and if continued on (which, I'm sure that most agree on the latter that it, in fact, did continue on).

Larsguy47

It's "self-contradictory" to outsiders who don't understand how to resolve the imposed and deliberate efforts to confuse you in the Bible. The Bible is, thus, for the most part a general book for everyone, but a specific book for selective insiders and what we interpret is quite clear, whereas for outsiders it's impossible to understand even if I explained it to you in detail. Thus what was prophesied about the confusion of Biblical secrets is yet another fulfillment:

41 ‘Behold it, YOU scorners, and wonder at it, and vanish away, because I am working a work in YOUR days, a work that YOU will by no means believe even if anyone relates it to YOU in detail.’”

God likes to catch the wise in their own cunning and totally trip them up. Like I said, it's sort of like if you turn you back on God and ignore him, he deceives you to the edge of a cliff then Jesus comes up from behind and pushes you over the edge. The "evidence" that would convince others about the truth of God can be right before you, but you won't see it that way because God will have blinded your mind (not yours specifically, but doubters, in general).

That's how it works. The insiders see everything, the outsiders see nothing. He how has much, more is given; he who has nothing, even that will be taken from him. That is, if you start out with zero faith with no reason to believe in God or the Bible, God will give you things to confirm your disbelief and make it seem as though you have a "mountain of evidence" in the opposite direction that there is no god, etc., like the profoundly stupid "theory of evolution."

:redface:

LG47

figuer

The most important thing to understand about the Biblical writers is that they contradict each other. A concensus only establishes what most of them agreed upon about the nature of their god, or what a posterior editor added as a way to make the whole thing more coherent. This would serve only to define the main mythological persona.

But in the case of judging such a god as credible, or as a theological entity, or as a moral being, any statement, even if present only one time, in a book claimed to be his direct word, is valid by it-self.

RED DAVE

From Larsguy47:
In other words, God is a deceiver.

By the way, if you want to debate evolution, why not go over to the evolution board and state your case?

RED DAV

figuer

Since I come from an "insider" family, and was myself an "insider" who had profound faith, I can tell you that you are right when you say that the "insiders see everything". Carefull "insider" study of the Bible permited me to see clearly that it was a lot of self-contradictory nonsense. So I started with abundant faith, with a lot of reason to believe in God and the Bible, and "both" led me to confirm my disbelief.

Chris Weimer

Not all of them do.

It can do far more than that. It tracks beliefs and their impact on society.

You're taking their theological presumptions at face value?

3DJay

Oh, the big picture? Personally, I think there's plenty of evidence of God changing, in the Bible. Even believers seem to think that praying can change an outcome, indicating they also believe so, even if they don't admit it.

God being unchangeable is a common definition, and Christians try to support it with the Bible.

James 1:17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows.

Isaiah 46:11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose. What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.

1 Samuel 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

Psalm 33:11 But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

Google: God Unchangeable
Google: God Unchangeability
Google: God Immutability

But, as figuer said, the Bible holds numerous contradictions.



Jeremiah 8

7 Even the stork in the sky
knows her appointed seasons,
and the dove, the swift and the thrush
observe the time of their migration.
But my people do not know
the requirements of the LORD.

8 " 'How can you say, "We are wise,
for we have the law of the LORD,"
when actually the lying pen of the scribes
has handled it falsely?

9 The wise will be put to shame;
they will be dismayed and trapped.
Since they have rejected the word of the LORD,
what kind of wisdom do they have?

10 Therefore I will give their wives to other men
and their fields to new owners.
From the least to the greatest,
all are greedy for gain;
prophets and priests alike,
all practice deceit.

My people? Who are his people, so called believers, or unbelievers? Believers, of course.

Who says, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD", so called believers, or unbelievers? Believers, of course.

Who's writing the laws, so called believers, or unbelievers? Believers, of course.

Who's corrupting the written law, so called believers, or unbelievers? Believers, of course.

So, who are the "wise" that God's going to punish, so called believers, or unbelievers? Believers, of course.


You think you're so wise, having figured out the secrets of the Bible. Better be careful. Why would God have to punish "wise" unbelievers? They're unbelievers, they're supposedly fucked already! What's he going to do? "You are sentenced to torture for eternity x 2, for being both unbelieving and wise!"


You make no sense.


Peace

figuer

I don't understand where you are comming from, or where you want to go.:huh:

Are you arguing for the sake of arguing?

In a book claimed to be the inerrant word of god by its believers, any statement about such god is a face value statement in regards to the theological nature of such a god.

If the book says in one part "I the lord don't change", then that is a theological statement about the nature of the god.

If in another part, the book were to say "I the lord change my mind", then that is also a theological statement.

Since they are contradictory statements, then it serves as a basis to judge as invalid the claim the such a book is the infalible word of god, and to judge such a god as false.

Sheshbazzar

Larsguy, Thank you for replying to my inquiry concerning the nature your relationship to the "Jehovah's Witness" organization, and for the further clarification of your personal persuasions.
I, (and many others) do not at all agree with your interpretations, nor your convictions, or high regard concerning the "Jehovah's Witness" organization, as having played any significant role in the fulfilment of prophecy, most certainly not to the extent that they ever were, or are, worthy of being accounted as the -"Christian covenant "temple" branch"- and thus accounted as foremost, and representative of a true Christianity.


There are a LOT of statistics available, hundreds of sites from which I could also have selected statistics, I did not, because those various sources of statistical counts do vary by millions.
I did say, based upon population figures that were published, and supported by a wide range of sources, that the world Jewish population in 1939 was estimated to be between 15 and 18 million.
The "Holocaust Statistics" you cite above, list 5,962,129 as being the number killed. I stated before, "even if the "6 million" claim is accepted at face value, it still comes far short of being anywhere near to 2/3rds of the Jews." "6 million", Six million, that is 6,000,000, is even more than that number which your chosen site estimated, still it is nowhere even close to being "2/3rds of the Jews" that were alive at that time.

Moreover such an exact count as given in your link, tends to be more suspect than just a general estimate or approximation, as there were certainly no centralized, precise and unbiased statistics being kept by anyone (human) anywhere during WWII.

The very foundation of your claim of the Holocaust being a prophetic fulfillment, requires the death of 2/3rds of the Jews, a claim which is not at all supported by the statistics, not even those that you have chosen.
And that little problem, just tends to totally invalidate virtually all of the rest of those long, involved, threads which you have been posting.
All of your careful "counts" , "proofs", and "theories" prove nothing if this pivotal number (of Jews) and event was NOT in fact fulfilled.
So you would be doing both yourself and all of us a favor, if you first are able to establish beyond any doubt or question, that 2/3rds of all of the Jews alive at the beginning of WWII were killed during the Holocaust.
Lacking proof of this as being fact, all the rest proves nothing, and accomplishes nothing.

Chris Weimer

figuer and 3DJay - I'm working with the assumption that God does not exist. I'm viewing this from a purely secular angle. Thus, I your, 3DJay, vain thoughts on punishments of unbelievers is a laugh and your, figuer, thoughts on trying to prove a god false is irrelevant.

Take it to EoG or GRD for that drivel.