vid

BTW, what's with "ninth hour" vs. "three o' clock" in various Matthew 27:46 translations?

avi

I don't KNOW the answer, but I guess, that the cock crows at 0600, thus starting the day, and therefore, 9 hours later = 1500, i.e. 3 pm.

avi

Toto

avi has the right idea.

Roman hours

The natural day was divided into 12 "hora" which would vary in length depending on the time of year and the latitude. For a rough approximation, add the Roman hour to 5 am.

Interesting, Augustus also died at the "9th hour." I'm sure that's just a coincidence.

spin

As it hasn't been said, "third hour" is a literal translation while "nine o'clock" is a modern equivalent, so that the "popular" reader can understand.

judge

This seems like agood example, though its interesting to note that early xtians didn’t see creation out of nothing.
Hebrews 11:3
3 By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.


this seems like apretty good example.


I don’t think we can say this is “tententious” unless we know the text the matthean writer used.
If she used the hebrew massoretic text we have or one from the DSS then yes it is tendetious, but we cant show that they did.
All we can know is that at times they agree with these.
The Matthean writer used no known text (consistently) so we cant know how their text read, and as the LXX we have has “virgin” it is possible the Matthean writer had such a text.

Are you saying this is “tendentious” on behalf of the Matthean author or the LXX author?

Sheshbazzar

Actually, it seems that the "the ninth hour" would need to begin about 2:00 and extend until 3:00 on the average.
(on or near the equinoxes, being the average) 6:00 am beginning the first hour of 'the day', (actually being the 13th hour in that 14th day which began at 6:00 pm the previous evening.)

If on The Passover 'evening' of the 14th day, (Lev 23:5 & Lu 22:8) 13 days x 24 hours=312 hrs,+12 hours of the 14th Passover evening + 8 hrs of the 14 th Passover day= "the ninth hour" about the beginning of the 333rd hour of the Month of Abib.
(Deut 16:1)

judge

An interesting one to consider is galatians 3.

Brothers and sisters, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. 16 The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.

Would one naturally get that from Genesis 12:7?

7 The LORD appeared to Abram and said, “To your seed I will give this land.” So he built an altar there to the LORD, who had appeared to him.

Was Paul using this tendentiously or dishonestly?

In 2 samuel 7:11-14 we see davids (not Abrahams) seed, who will effectively run things is an individual, and then even amongst the DSS we see a messianic seed, who is an individual, who is not Solomon but someone in the "last days". Is there a connection between notions of Abrahams seed, as inheritor, and davids seed, as a kingly figure?

Is tendentious reinterpretation is part and parcel of ancient judaism ?

spin

Matthew has nothing directly to do with Isaiah. Our problem here is how modern translators deal with Isaiah 7:14 as indicated by the Masoretic text and as found in 1QIsaA (circa 125 BCE) -- the earliest form we have of the text.

spin

This thread is about tendentiousness in modern translation ultimately to help people vet bibles for usage in their learning about christianity. How ancients used their sacred scriptures is not the scope here, but would make interesting enough discussion for a new thread.

judge

Is Deu 32:9, ......sons of Israel...ancient or modern?

I thought that was quite old, which is why I mentioned the older stuff.