Porky Houton

I brought up the topic of incest in the Old Testament and got the following response:
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.....regarding incest, you cannot judge yesterday's standards by today's results. The reason incest is illegal today (not sex between daughters and dads - that has always has been an abomination to God, and was so in the account you relay - just because it was recorded does not in itself indicate God's approval), is because of the genetic deformities that will likely result. Not so with the early generations of mankind - our gene pool has not gotten better over time - it has degenerated. The age old question of "Where did Cain get his wife" is not a very smart one - the answer is obvious: he married a sister.

Finally - the allowance or prohibition of incest is not a moral absolute. "Thou shalt not commit adultery," however, is an example of a moral absolute.
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So incest is okay with Yahweh as long as the gene pool won't suffer or something like that?

Having sex with your daughter is an abomination but having sex with your sister is okay? :banghead:

And the last two lines....WTF? If "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is a moral absolute, why were Yahweh's leaders always "blessed" with "wives and concubines"?

Anyone care to comment on this?

Sven

Yeah. Just use a condom and everything is alright.

Because people like him either
1) have not read the bible or
2) only read their preconceived conclusion into the text

mamabear

I have heard this argument before, in trying to explain it to me the idea went something like God gave man perfect DNA that with the sin in the garden and thus accumulated sins of each person weakens the DNA such that close family relatives have the same sin effect on their DNA thus the later need to avoid incest whereas in the beginning with the perfect DNA if we had never eaten that apple we would still be having sex with our brothers (or sisters or fathers or mothers etc.)

by the way I want it to be clear this is NOT my reasoning rather it is the reasoning I have heard fundimentalist spout. Oh and no they didn't say which scripture that information was to be found in rather that sometimes the will of God can be infered from the entire biblical picture.

Toto

This is obvious rationalization on the part of Christians trying to salvage what they can from the Genesis account.

The last thread on Cain's wife and related issues is here. It seems to be a perennial topic.

And the Biblical prohibition against adultery is a prohibition against married women sleeping with other men, or men sleeping with another man's wife, not a restriction on male conduct otherwise.

Diogenes the Cynic

This doesn't really even makes semantic sense, much less biological. The phrase "gene pool" refers only to the number of genes available in a given population. A gene pool does not "get better" or "degenerate." It only gets bigger or smaller. Gene pools refer to quantity, not quality.

Furthermore, the Christian's overall argument still misunderstands the biology involved in the potential genetic problems caused by inbreeding. This potential (which tends to be highly exaggerated in popular imagination) is not caused by a poor quality of allelles but by a lack of diversity which leads to a greater chance that deleterious genes will be duplicated. To put it more simply, the bigger the gene pool, the better. The more genetically diverse the population, the more healthy it is.

It probably needs to be emphasized that the "quality" of individual genes does not play into it. The inherent problems with inbreeding are exactly the same no matter what the quality of the genes. It's the number of available genes that matter, not the alleged quality.

As the question pertains to this forum, I also have to say that since this pseudoscience argument is not really Biblical that the discussion might be better suited in one of science forums where people who understand the biology far better than I can hopefully do a more thorough job of explaining why the Christian's hypothesis is bunk.

jakejonesiv

The whole cain and Able thing....
Cain as we know has been assumed to be the son of Adam and Eve. But no where is Cain found in Adam's geneology (Genesis 5) NOR is Adam found in Cain's geneology (Genesis 4). I thought this was for a second, UNTIL I couldn't seem to find Abel in Adam's geneology EITHER!!! NOWHERE in scripture is Cain OR Abel considered Adam's son, but they are considered sons of the woman. In the 3 times Adam is used as the head of Geneology (Genesis 5, 1 Chronicles, and Matthew) Abel NOR Cain are anywhere to be found.

It is stated explicitly in Genesis 4 that Cain is the son of Adam and Eve. And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain Gen 4:1 But it does not explicitly say that anywhere that ADAM is Cain's father.
Now for the interesting part! Abel is stated to be Eve's son, but Adam is not mentioned! And she again bare his brother Abel.Gen 4:2

So, while I would say that it is likely that Abel is Adam's son, it is by no means the only possibility! (Mythically speaking, of course). But it really makes no difference as far as geneologies go, because Abel was killed before he could reproduce! Gen 4:8 (Or could he have had children we don't know about?).

Adam knew his wife, but her conception was due to Adam's "knowing" her and her "knowing" the serpent. Yes, I said BOTH. This happens to this day--a woman copulates with two different men and conceives by both men whose individual spermatozoa impregnate two individual eggs resulting in fraternal twins .

The real question is, did Eve have sex with the serpent, a beast of the field the Elohim had altered? (Gen 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtle than any BEAST of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?) We know that her transgression went far beyond the act of disobeyance by "eating" an apple or marijuana. You know that fruits and trees were often symbolic of life forms and seeds. Animals are seed-bearing organisms, man being no exception. So she 'ate' of the serpent's tree, she had "known" the sex act before the appointed time, and with the serpent at that. Eve did have sex with the serpent because when she ate of the fruit she "KNEW " she good and evil. "Knew " or "KNOWING throughout the book of genesis ALWAYS conotates SEX. ymmv.

Then, having been seduced by the serpent, turned around and showed Adam how to do the nasty? Let's face it folks, most women cannot fathom being tempted by some lizard-looking animal no matter how colorful or beautiful it's markings! No, the serpent was one fine-looking being like Jake, more good looking than Adam himself. Can't you see it now, him up there talking about, "come here girl; you know you lookin so FINE these days," him turning her around to get a nice long look at her, and she being naive and flattered by the attention. Then like a mack daddy Serpent says something like, "Aw, the Almighty's just player hatin." "I got that GOOD love girl, you didn't know?"

So she did "know" the serpent and then "knew" Adam immediately afterward, finds out that she is with child Gen 4:3. And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived (yes, and by whom?), and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD." Why would she say she had gotten a man from the Lord if the father was Adam? The term Lord is in question here, no matter how KJV capitalizes the word. You know who was referred to as a "Lord" as well and even in modern times is referred to as the Lord of the flies. Then in Gen 4:2 it says "And she again bare his brother Abel," as in the case of the birthing of twins..

Cain decides to exact revenge upon Abel, because Cain was his daddy's (that old serpent) baby, and Abel was his daddy's (Adam) baby, and there was enmity between the two seeds. And so where did Cain go--to the land of Wanderings IN the earth, EAST of Eden as he was driven from the FACE or SURFACE of the earth. The preposition IN is significant to me and presents a cogent distinction in this instance--especially since it is reiterated two times over.

There was no point in Cain trying to continue his gardening activities for the Almighty cursed the ground to him. Being unable to till the soil for food, he was forced to move constantly, hunting and gathering, hiding from the wild "beasts" and looking for food either above or below the ground, raiding Adam's camp. Does the term wild beasts constitute animals or some other lifeform or entity? Damn, wheres my adderall?

Gen 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden. Gen 4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch. The City underground. There are/were no physical remains nor mention of this city in scriptural texts to any great extent.
In addition, many have speculated as to where Cain got his wife. I have read that he married some type of Simian creature. It COULD have been his abducted sister Naamah as intimated in apocryphal text. It could have been Abel's twin sister (yes, I've read that Cain and Abel comprised two sets of twins with each set bearing boy/girl, boy/girl. Abel was to marry his twin, and Cain was to marry his twin, but Cain wanted to marry Abel's twin. Or, it could have been an alien. Think about this, the "greys," those alien/fallen beings who exist in intricate catacombs below earth's surface, are alleged to have been here a LONG time. Suppose, just suppose Cain married one of their genetic mutations/creations/abominations? And, since we're speculating, and if you have read this <...explicitive deleted..> this far, we may as well SPECULATE!! Was it Cain and Cheetah? Cain and Naamah?

Cain and the Grey Girl? Hmmmmm. The Greys are reportedly needful of blood as a food supply. Legends of the first city state that the denizens of that city also drank blood and often took slaves from the line of Seth to supply themselves with labor, sport, and--blood.
Cain was forced to dwell IN the earth,the first city was deep in the earth, protecting many of it's citizens from the deluge and allowing this line to continue insidiously underground and not being entirely annihilated. Don't get eliminated!
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