Freethought & Rationalism Archive

gstafleu · 02-13-2007, 09:23 AM

In another thread somebody mentioned Dale Allison, who is a Christian believer and nonetheless holds that "We have become very sophisticated in our understanding of Genesis as mythology." This reminded me of something I have been wondering about from some time: from what exactly is Jesus supposed to "save" us?

I always thought that it was from the consequences of the Fall of Man (that whole snake and apple business) in Genesis 3. But if that is mythology, then what is there left to be saved from? In other words, if we don't take the Fall of Man literally, why do we need the passion?

I suppose you could see Gen 3 as a metaphor for something, but if so: for what? And if Gen 3 is a metaphor, then why would the passion not be a metaphor as well?

I did a quick search for "save" in the NT, but that didn't really help. A few mentions of "save from our sins" and "save the world," but otherwise it is not all that clear what Jesus is saving us from. Maybe the save-idea is a later (post NT) development?

Gerard Stafleu

Steven Carr · 02-13-2007, 10:35 AM

As God knows the future, he knows who will be in Hell and who won't.

And he knew that when he created the world.

So people will be saved from something that was never going to happen to them.

gstafleu · 02-13-2007, 10:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Carr

As God knows the future, he knows who will be in Hell and who won't.

And he knew that when he created the world.

So people will be saved from something that was never going to happen to them.

Well, maybe. But we still don't know what that thing is that was or was not going to happen.

Gerard Stafleu

Roller · 02-13-2007, 10:52 AM

FWIW

If we are to consider Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher, then he was preparing people for imminent coming of Son of Man/God's judgment. Jesus believed that the end is coming during his life and in order to be saved, you had to listen to his message. As John The Baptist would say "the axe is at the root of the tree." Poor and downtrodden will be saved, rich and prosperous will not. Only reason why they are prosperous is due to their alignment with the forces of darkness.

So, from what I can understand, Jesus was preparing people for the imminent coming of the Kingdom.

Roller · 02-13-2007, 10:53 AM

How many more double posts can I have?

Elijah · 02-13-2007, 07:13 PM

I think Jesus died trying to save us from earthly Kings and Emperors.

The Son of Man was trying to eliminate the Rulers of Man. He was giving the people a choice; you can either serve the earthly kings that send you to die for them or the eternal king who died for you. If men need to serve someone then serve him.

It goes back more to Mosses and pharaoh then Adam’s fall. While there is an attempt to eliminate sin and get us back into the garden it seems that he sees the rulers as the first thing that has to go for us to get free. If we didn’t have the rulers leading us astray eventually/naturally we would see what was the correct way to live together.

"So long as men worship the Caesars and Napoleons, Caesars and Napoleons will duly arise and make them miserable."
Aldous Huxley

Draconis · 02-13-2007, 07:44 PM

I think Jesus's death was supposed to stop sinners going to hell by repenting and becoming nice-but-boring christians instead of heathens. Basically believe he was the son of god and be nice (from now on, at least) then go to heaven.

But...

Isn't that what the jews believe, except replacing "believing he was the son of god" with "believing God exists" (?) Exactly what is fundamentally different?
I mean, why should having Jesus do his stuff change what a Jew believes?

OneInFundieville · 02-13-2007, 08:13 PM

Jesus saves us from killing goats at church on Sunday mornings.

Goathead · 02-13-2007, 10:16 PM

Jesus saves, Satan parties.

Hmmmmmmmm, what to do?........

purple_kathryn · 02-13-2007, 11:18 PM

I always liked

"Jesus saves......and cashes in for great prizes!"

02-13-2007, 09:23 AM	#1
gstafleu Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: London, Ontario, Canada Posts: 1,719	Jesus saves us from... exactly what? In another thread somebody mentioned Dale Allison, who is a Christian believer and nonetheless holds that "We have become very sophisticated in our understanding of Genesis as mythology." This reminded me of something I have been wondering about from some time: from what exactly is Jesus supposed to "save" us? I always thought that it was from the consequences of the Fall of Man (that whole snake and apple business) in Genesis 3. But if that is mythology, then what is there left to be saved from? In other words, if we don't take the Fall of Man literally, why do we need the passion? I suppose you could see Gen 3 as a metaphor for something, but if so: for what? And if Gen 3 is a metaphor, then why would the passion not be a metaphor as well? I did a quick search for "save" in the NT, but that didn't really help. A few mentions of "save from our sins" and "save the world," but otherwise it is not all that clear what Jesus is saving us from. Maybe the save-idea is a later (post NT) development? Gerard Stafleu

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02-13-2007, 10:35 AM	#2
Steven Carr Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2001 Location: England Posts: 5,629	As God knows the future, he knows who will be in Hell and who won't. And he knew that when he created the world. So people will be saved from something that was never going to happen to them.

02-13-2007, 10:52 AM	#4
Roller Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cleveland Posts: 658	FWIW If we are to consider Jesus as an apocalyptic preacher, then he was preparing people for imminent coming of Son of Man/God's judgment. Jesus believed that the end is coming during his life and in order to be saved, you had to listen to his message. As John The Baptist would say "the axe is at the root of the tree." Poor and downtrodden will be saved, rich and prosperous will not. Only reason why they are prosperous is due to their alignment with the forces of darkness. So, from what I can understand, Jesus was preparing people for the imminent coming of the Kingdom.

02-13-2007, 10:53 AM	#5
Roller Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Cleveland Posts: 658	How many more double posts can I have?

02-13-2007, 07:13 PM	#6
Elijah Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: MidWest Posts: 1,894	I think Jesus died trying to save us from earthly Kings and Emperors. The Son of Man was trying to eliminate the Rulers of Man. He was giving the people a choice; you can either serve the earthly kings that send you to die for them or the eternal king who died for you. If men need to serve someone then serve him. It goes back more to Mosses and pharaoh then Adam’s fall. While there is an attempt to eliminate sin and get us back into the garden it seems that he sees the rulers as the first thing that has to go for us to get free. If we didn’t have the rulers leading us astray eventually/naturally we would see what was the correct way to live together. "So long as men worship the Caesars and Napoleons, Caesars and Napoleons will duly arise and make them miserable." Aldous Huxley

02-13-2007, 07:44 PM	#7
Draconis Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 3,165	I think Jesus's death was supposed to stop sinners going to hell by repenting and becoming nice-but-boring christians instead of heathens. Basically believe he was the son of god and be nice (from now on, at least) then go to heaven. But... Isn't that what the jews believe, except replacing "believing he was the son of god" with "believing God exists" (?) Exactly what is fundamentally different? I mean, why should having Jesus do his stuff change what a Jew believes?

02-13-2007, 08:13 PM	#8
OneInFundieville Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Where I go Posts: 2,168	Jesus saves us from killing goats at church on Sunday mornings.

02-13-2007, 10:16 PM	#9
Goathead Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Australia, between desert and ocean. Posts: 1,953	Jesus saves, Satan parties. Hmmmmmmmm, what to do?........

02-13-2007, 11:18 PM	#10
purple_kathryn Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Northern Ireland Posts: 3,382	I always liked "Jesus saves......and cashes in for great prizes!"

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