Drew J

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven...and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other...when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near...Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." (Matthew 24:29-34)
Sun going dark? Moon without light? Stars falling, heavens shaking, son of man coming in the clouds with powers and sending angels? Sounds like the end of the world.

"From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Matthew 4:17)
Magus 55 said that according to Mark they saw the kingdom of heaven in a vision and that is good enough to fulfill what Jesus said. Remember that when you say vision Magus, I hear dream. So what you're telling me is that Jesus is telling everyone to repent their deeds because of a dream/vision they might have? Good one. Jesus is telling them in Matthew 24 what to watch out for; meaning they will see it (Oh, there's that word 'see' which you bolded in your post Magus when you said see in reference to a vision). Now the question is what is more reasonable? That Jesus wants them to repent their actions because of a simple dream they'll have ("see") or that Jesus is telling them to repent because of all the scary, world ending things that Matthew 24:29-34 says will happen within their lifetime which they can see? I’m inclined to go with the latter.

Here's another verse talking about what the end will be like:
"The day of the lord will come...on that day the heavens will disappear with a shrill noise, the heavenly bodies will burn up (the sun and moon mentioned in Matthew 24?) and be destroyed and the earth with everything in it will vanish." (2Peter 3:10)

Other instances where the end of the world is discussed:
"Now when all ages of time are nearing the end, he has appeared once and for all..." (Hebrews 9:26)
"You need to be patient in order to do the will of God...the scripture says 'just a little while longer and he who is coming will come.'" (Hebrews 10:36-37)
"My children, the end is near." (1John 2:18) What's the end like? Well just look at Matthew 24 and 2Peter 3 for an idea.
"Jesus Christ…God have him this revelation in order to show to his servants what must happen very soon." (Revelations 1:1) And oh my gosh, you can just take a quick glance upward to see what his servants were talking about.
“I am coming soon. Keep safe what you have.� (Revelations 3:11)
“‘Listen’ says Jesus. ‘I am coming soon. Happy are those who obey the prophetic words in this book’� (Revelations 22:7) And how is he coming soon? Why just look back at Matthew 24 and 2Peter 3.
“‘Listen’ says Jesus. ‘I am coming soon. I will bring my rewards with me to give to each one according to what he has done.’� (Revelations 22:12)
"For the sn of Man is about to come in the glory of his Father with his angels, and then he will reward each one according to his deeds. I assure you there are some here who will not die until they have seen the Son of Man come as King." (Matthew 16:28-28)

From Mark Smith's website
"The fact that Jesus gave these warnings exclusively, and face-to-face to, his twelve Apostles, should be a strong sign that the warnings were meant for them while they still lived. It would have been a waste of their time and emotional energy to have warned the Apostles of things that were yet thousands of years removed in the future."
"The entire chapter of Matthew 24 is filled with the pronoun "You" which, if YOU follow it back to the beginning of the chapter, clearly shows that Jesus was speaking both TO his Apostles and FOR his Apostles. He clearly is NOT speaking in broad generalities to all mankind for all time and eternity."
"I went to hear a lecture by Dr. Wayne House (who used to be with Dallas Theological Seminary) on Matthew 24. In the lecture he stated that the context showed that part of the chapter deals with issues for "back then" while other parts dealt with the future. When I asked him to please show me these transitions in the chapter itself, he admitted that he couldn't FOR THEY WERE NOT THERE."
Someone comes along and says to Mark you should extend the same level of research to the phrase "end of the world" in verse 3 as you have to your studies of the word "generation" in verse 34. You will find that the English word "world" is actually better translated "age" and points to a reference of time. What age was Jesus referring to?
Mark replies..."I know all about the Greek words for world and ages (cosmos and eon) and am also aware of the different interpretations thereof. The reason I chose to label it "The End of The World" is because that is what it would be for mankind, IF what Jesus said is going to happen WOULD really happen. According to Jesus, stars would be crashing down upon the Earth. According to astronomers, one star, even the smallest star known in the universe, would be enough to destroy our entire planet."

judge

It might be like us saying "the lights are going to go out".
It meant judgement was coming on the nation of Israel. This climaxed around 70 a.d.http://www.preteristvision.org/quest....html#subhead1

Steven Carr

Oh, is that what it means?

Do you have any Church Fathers who claimed Jesus had returned in 70 AD, so that the prophecies in 2 Peter and Matthew 24 had been fulfilled in the first century?

I shall repeat the relevant bits of Matthew 24.


27For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.
29"Immediately after the distress of those days
" 'the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.'
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

When were the elect gathered 'with a loud trumpet call', which sounds as though it happened very quickly?

When did 'all the nations of the earth mourn'? When did all the nations of the earth see that the Son of Man had come with power and great glory?

Was the destruction of the Temple really Jesus coming with great glory?

What is the difference between JWs saying Jesus returned invisibly in 1914 and preterists saying Jesus returned invisibly in 70 AD?

Matthew also said '21For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now--and never to be equaled again.'

Was the destruction of Jerusalem, bad though it was, really worse to the fire-storming of Tokyo or the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagaski?

2 Peter 3 says :-
8But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elements will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare.
11Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be?

This was supposedly written just a few years before the day of the Lord came.

Why did Peter say that it could take a thousand years, when his Lord said it would happen in his lifetime? Why didn't he just say that it was all going to happen in just 4 or 5 years time, rather than hint that it might not happen for a thousand years?

2 Peter says 'everything will be destroyed'. Was he referring to just one small state in the Roman Empire?

judge

Who cares what "church fathers" say. Do you have any quotes from "church fathers" who were around at this time?

Tacitus - Roman historian:
"In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightening flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure" (Histories, v. 13).

Eusebius Pamphili (circa A.D. 260-341), Bishop of Caesarea quoting Josphesus :
"A few days after the Feast, on the 21st of Artemisius, a supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I have to relate would have been dismissed as an invention had it not been vouched for by eyewitnesses and followed by disasters that bore out the signs. Befoe sunset there were seen in the sky over the whole country chariots and regiments in arms speeding through the clouds and encircling the towns." (Eusebius: The History of the Church from Christ to Constantine, translated by G.A. Williamson (Penguin Classics, 1965; revised by Andrew Louth, 1989) Book 3, Ch. 8 ).


The dead were raised.

From that time on I presume. News of the messiah spread throughout the globe.


Well the main difference seesm to be that Jesus himself said he would return in the lifetime of those who heard him. This cannot mean 1914

I doubt it, perhaps you are reading this too literally?

Don't know but understanding this paasge is not that important to me.

Apparently, the language is quite similar to the language used by the biblical prophets in relation to judgement on Israel.

hope this helps

Steven Carr

There were quite a few Church fathers in the 2nd, 3rd and 4th centuries.

The Church fathers were closer to the culture than preterists are, so it is suprising that they all interpreted the Bible wrongly.


You claim that people saw gods leaving the Temple!?!

You are apparently just throwing anything forward and counting it as evidence.

Why did 'all the nations of the Earth' not see this, as Jesus promised they would'?


When did all this happen? When did this army appear, and this noise was heard?

Was this really the coming of Jesus with power and glory?

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Jewi.../jo-6-5-3.html

This happened BEFORE the rebellion, according to Josephus, ie before the Temple was destroyed, and BEFORE you claim Jesus returned.


It quotes Josephus :-

'Besides these, a few days after that feast, on the one-and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities.

Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking , and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence."'

So, presumably , these were all merely signs of Jesus's coming, as Jerusalem was NOT destroyed at that time - at the time you claim people saw things in the sky.

Matthew 24

38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

Accordin to Jesus, there would be no signs.

Josephus wrote 'So these publicly declared, that this signal forshewed the desolation that was coming upon them.'

So how come Jesus said they would know nothing about what would happen, when Josephus said people said publically what would happen?

Judge writes 'The dead were raised.'

I must have missed the raising of the dead, and the rapture.

judge

The 4th century!!??
This is along time afterwards. The fact that vyou need to go to the 4th century before you have "quite a few" indicates your arguments are not that strong.

Quote:

You claim that people saw gods leaving the Temple!?!

No. You are putting words in my mouth.

Quote:

Judge writes 'The dead were raised.' I must have missed the raising of the dead, and the rapture.

Why would you possibly have expected to have witnessed it?

Sparrow

No, what he means is that all or nearly all of the major figures in the church got it wrong for more than 300 years. Make that 2000 years

I sure wish the bible came with instructions for when and when to not read it 'literally'. Maybe the whole thing is just a parable.

Actually, maybe Jesus came back around 70 AD and ghost wrote Mk.

Steven Carr

No, it means I was generously giving you an awful lot of leeway to find somebody who was on your side.