Freethought & Rationalism Archive

Johnny Skeptic · 01-18-2008, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel in fact never occupied the entire land promised to them by Abraham, it's still waiting for it's prophetic fullfilment. Even at the height of ancient Israel's power, under Solomon, it didn't possess all the land. Once Israel possesses all of the land then will never be disperesed into the nations as they have repeatedly in their long history.

But that does not explain the word "everlasting" in Genesis 17:8. The verse says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. The only reasonable explanation for that is that the writer believed that Abraham and his descendants would ALWAYS possess ALL of the land of Canaan, and that, contrary to expectations, when the Jews were kicked out of Palestine, new myths were made up that said that the Jews would be scattered, a convenient claim that had to have been made AFTER the Jews had already been scattered, and that eventually they would possess ALL of the land of Canaan, which in fact is not the case today. The current land in Palestine that Jews occupy today cannot logically be interpreted as being an everlasting covenant. You need to explain what the writer of Genesis 17:8 intended for his audience to believe regarding the word "everlasting."

At any rate, what is the big deal about prophecy? If Bill Clinton was able to predict the future, would you worship him?

Even if God is able to predict the future, since he is a liar, why do you accept him? God broke his promise to give Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar as a compensation for his failure to defeat Tyre? Why did God break his word.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-18-2008, 01:02 PM

Message to arnoldo: If God really wanted to convince people to believe that Jews would eventually return to Palestine, all that he would have needed to do would have been to predict when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. That way, God could have established much better credibility than he has established. Why didn't God want to establish much better credibility than he has established? His refusal to do that has certainly not benefitted him or anyone else.

spin · 01-18-2008, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Israel never obtained all of the Promised Land (from Egypt to the Euphrates River) due to disobience thus the prophecy is set for a future time. Note Nehemiah 1:8-9

Quote:

8 "Remember the instruction you gave your servant Moses, saying, 'If you are unfaithful, I will scatter you among the nations, 9 but if you return to me and obey my commands, then even if your exiled people are at the farthest horizon, I will gather them from there and bring them to the place I have chosen as a dwelling for my Name.'

Why should God have given Israel all of the promised land from Egypt to the Euphrates River when they frequently were unfaithful & worshipped idols, just like their neighbors? No, the prophecy is set for a future time and once Israel occupies all of the land it will be everlasting just as God promised Abraham.

In the end you're admitting with these excuses that you are peddling another unfulfilled prophecy. First you pretend that it has been fulfilled, then partially fulfilled but now you claim "the prophecy is set for a future time and once Israel occupies all of the land it will be everlasting just as God promised Abraham", ie once politicians or soldiers make it happen for god. No more godly intervention, no parting of the sea, no more stopping of the sun, no more killing whole nations with the jawbone of an ass. It's politicians and soldiers. Bombs and tanks. God has sure changed with the times.

spin

arnoldo · 01-18-2008, 01:48 PM

Even with signs and wonders people will not believe, that is human nature. Take a look at all the miracles the Jews saw when Moses took them out of Egypt. Soon thereafter the Jews turned their back on God and were worshipping a golden calf. Even the disciples doubted Yeshua after seeing signs and miracles. The reason the bible is so believable is that it accurately describes the flaws of men, even believers. We have Cain killing Abel, Noah getting drunk, Moses trying to give excuses to God that he can't speak well, David committing adultery, etc,etc. This all points out that humanity needs a Messiah in order to develop an entirely new spiritual nature. We are also given a glimpse into this aspect of mankinds disbelief in the millenium when Yeshua himself is ruling Israel and towards the end certain people rise up to attempt to destroy Israel once again. So sorry, no amount of signs, prophecies, will ever convince anyone. However if you really want to see a sign just open your eyes and look at the universe God created.

makerowner · 01-18-2008, 01:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Even with signs and wonders people will not believe, that is human nature. Take a look at all the miracles the Jews saw when Moses took them out of Egypt. Soon thereafter the Jews turned their back on God and were worshipping a golden calf. Even the disciples doubted Yeshua after seeing signs and miracles.

I asked you this before, and got no answer: if this is true, then why does God bother with miracles at all? But I don't think it is true. All God would have to do to save my soul (if he existed) is appear in a blaze of glory in my living room and predict tomorrows lotto numbers. I'd be convinced.

spin · 01-18-2008, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jack the Bodiless

Sugarhitman, why do you keep making exactly the same blunder, over and over again?

The Jews of the Diaspora were SCATTERED. They weren't carried off and held in CAPTIVITY in other countries.

The CAPTIVES were the victims of the BABYLONIAN CAPTIVITY, also known as the BABYLONIAN EXILE.

When Rome destroyed Israel they were forbidden to restore this nation, this is what contitutes captivity of the Jews by not allowing them to reclaim state-hood in their land. they may be able to move freely in other countires but if they could not reclaim their ancient home land and nation they are in fact in captivity. :wave:

You sure know how to con yourself with ridiculous word games, sugarhitman. Captivity doesn't mean captivity in this case according to you, but exclusion from going somewhere, kind of the opposite of captivity. Do you usually manipulate the truth so easily or just with yourself? Surely you know that this silliness is not for the benefit of forum members. The only person who seems likely to benefit in some way is you.

spin

Johnny Skeptic · 01-18-2008, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Even with signs and wonders people will not believe, that is human nature.

But that is irrelevant for purposes of this thread. Please stay on topic. In the opening post, sugarhitman said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

The history of the Jews has been one of dispersion and restoration.......

Restored to what? Certainly not to what Genesis 17:8 claims. Genesis 17:8 says that God promised to give Abraham and his descendants ALL of the land of ancient Canaan as an EVERLASTING covenant. The partition of Palestine failed on both counts. Please tell us how you believe the writer of Genesis 17:8 intended for his audience to interpret that verse.

If you are going to quote the Bible, you will not be able to get away with cherry-picking. Even one lie discredits the entire Bible. Genesis 17:8 is the foundational Scripture for all subsequent Scriptures about Jewish history. Unless you can reasonably interpret it in ways that helps your arguments, you lose. I will keep mentioning Genesis 17:8 unless you provide reasonable explains for what it means that help your arguments.

At any rate, even if God has power, so what? Are you are not aware that might does not make right? The validity of the historical record is only one part of reasonable grounds for a person to become a Christian. The issue of God's character is equally important. If God helped Abraham and his group to drive the Canaanites out of their homeland, that was wrong.

Johnny Skeptic · 01-18-2008, 02:13 PM

Message to arnoldo: Since there is reasonable proof that God is a liar and a hypocrite, it obviously would not make any difference if he told the truth some of the time. All liars tell the truth some of the time. Since God is a liar, he might or might not eventually give all of the land of ancient Canann to Jews.

Sheshonq · 01-18-2008, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sugarhitman

Is not Jerusalem the capital of Israel which has always been? Yes, you say?

No, actually.

Quote:

Then indeed Israel is restored. It does not matter how much territory has been restored to them that determines if they are restored or not.

That's funny; arnoldo says that the prophecy of Israel's restoration hasn't been fulfilled yet, because the Jews don't have all the land promised to them.

Yet you say it has been fulfilled.

Maybe you two ought to coordinate your responses first, instead of contradicting each other?

Sheshonq · 01-18-2008, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arnoldo

Here is a prophecy that has already been fulfilled

Quote:

Hosea 9 :17 My God will reject them because they have not obeyed him; they will be wanderers among the nations.

But Jews wandered among the nations" before Christ.
As well as after Christ.

Seems like Jews are just prone to wandering, no matter what, and no matter when. How is that a prophecy?

Quote:

There are other prophecies that state after the Jews wander among the nations they will begin to return to their homeland as they are doing so this very moment.

Apparently not, since

1. most Jews still live outside of Israel.

2. Immigration into Israel has been declining:

Quote:

Immigration to Israel in 2007 down 6%, at its lowest since 1989

By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent

The number of new immigrants arriving in Israel in 2007 was 19,700 - a decline of 6 percent over last year, according to the Absorption Ministry end-of-the-year statistics released on Sunday.

This is the lowest number of immigrants since 1989, after the wave of immigration following the fall of the Iron Curtain.

Forecasts for 2008 do not show an increase in newcomers.

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01-18-2008, 01:02 PM	#272
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: If God really wanted to convince people to believe that Jews would eventually return to Palestine, all that he would have needed to do would have been to predict when and where some natural disasters would occur. By "when," I mean month, day, and year. That way, God could have established much better credibility than he has established. Why didn't God want to establish much better credibility than he has established? His refusal to do that has certainly not benefitted him or anyone else.

01-18-2008, 01:48 PM	#274
arnoldo Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Latin America Posts: 4,066	Even with signs and wonders people will not believe, that is human nature. Take a look at all the miracles the Jews saw when Moses took them out of Egypt. Soon thereafter the Jews turned their back on God and were worshipping a golden calf. Even the disciples doubted Yeshua after seeing signs and miracles. The reason the bible is so believable is that it accurately describes the flaws of men, even believers. We have Cain killing Abel, Noah getting drunk, Moses trying to give excuses to God that he can't speak well, David committing adultery, etc,etc. This all points out that humanity needs a Messiah in order to develop an entirely new spiritual nature. We are also given a glimpse into this aspect of mankinds disbelief in the millenium when Yeshua himself is ruling Israel and towards the end certain people rise up to attempt to destroy Israel once again. So sorry, no amount of signs, prophecies, will ever convince anyone. However if you really want to see a sign just open your eyes and look at the universe God created.

01-18-2008, 02:13 PM	#278
Johnny Skeptic Banned Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Florida Posts: 19,796	Message to arnoldo: Since there is reasonable proof that God is a liar and a hypocrite, it obviously would not make any difference if he told the truth some of the time. All liars tell the truth some of the time. Since God is a liar, he might or might not eventually give all of the land of ancient Canann to Jews.

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