Freethought & Rationalism Archive

StarryNight · 03-15-2010, 08:56 AM

Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?

dog-on · 03-15-2010, 09:02 AM

I would imagine that the Greeks were already quite aware of the term Son of God, as they worshiped quite a few of them.

show_no_mercy · 03-15-2010, 09:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarryNight

Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?

This is from the Jewish Encyclopedia

Quote:

The Pious as Sons of God.

The Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha contain a few passages in which the title "son of God" is given to the Messiah (see Enoch, cv. 2; IV Esdras vii. 28-29; xiii. 32, 37, 52; xiv. 9); but the title belongs also to any one whose piety has placed him in a filial relation to God (see Wisdom ii. 13, 16, 18; v. 5, where "the sons of God" are identical with "the saints"; comp. Ecclus. [Sirach] iv. 10). It is through such personal relations that the individual becomes conscious of God's fatherhood, and gradually in Hellenistic and rabbinical literature "sonship to God" was ascribed first to every Israelite and then to every member of the human race (Abot iii. 15, v. 20; Ber. v. 1; see Abba). The God-childship of man has been especially accentuated in modern Jewish theology, in sharp contradistinction to the Christian God-sonship of Jesus.

The pagan term "son of God" was a title given to Roman emperors. IIRC since Julius Caesar was deified, emperors who took his name (Caesar) were his "sons". Thus they were "sons of god". To Greeks and Romans, if Jesus was called "son of God" this would imply his kingship.

funinspace · 03-15-2010, 10:43 AM

How would the "Muslims" know? Paul is our first written source of this new sect, as it emerged. What sources do they use to argue this, maybe the Quran from 600 years later?

aa5874 · 03-15-2010, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarryNight

Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?

It seems more like true poo.

Once Paul was a Jew.

StarryNight · 03-16-2010, 05:39 AM

Thanks for the answers all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

How would the "Muslims" know?

Good question. I am not sure, but I think that looked at the bible or contemporary sources and found the term "Son of God" was applied to others. IIRC they said that David was called such.

Quote:

Paul is our first written source of this new sect, as it emerged. What sources do they use to argue this, maybe the Quran from 600 years later?

I was told that Paul wanted vengance against the Jews because they would not let him marry (cant remember her name) so he plotted over the years in the desert and invented the heretical version of Christianity found in his writings.

Toto · 03-16-2010, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarryNight

... I was told that Paul wanted vengance against the Jews because they would not let him marry (cant remember her name) so he plotted over the years in the desert and invented the heretical version of Christianity found in his writings.

This is the story told about Paul by the

Ebionites according to Epiphanius of Salamis, Panarion 30.16.6-9

mountainman · 03-16-2010, 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarryNight

Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?

Utter bullshit. Why would the Greeks listen to "Dear Paul"? As you say, the Greeks had their own cultural investment in their own family of gods. Why would they discard such an investment? The Greeks had Apollo the son of the God Zeus plastered across the empire before the epoch when "Dear Paul" and Senecca lived. To compound this, the son of the God Apollo --- Asclepius --- was also extremely well recognised in magnificent temples and shrines across the empire cince at least the 3rd century BCE.

Both the Muslim religion and the christian religion were spread via the sword by military supremacists who both ordered for the execution of the authors of satirical literature works against the ideologies and "absolute authoritarian structure" of their respective centralised state religious cults.

Chili · 03-16-2010, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by funinspace

How would the "Muslims" know? Paul is our first written source of this new sect, as it emerged. What sources do they use to argue this, maybe the Quran from 600 years later?

Good point as they have always been short one of those.

Chili · 03-16-2010, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aa5874

Quote:

Originally Posted by StarryNight

Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West.

True or poo?

It seems more like true poo.

Once Paul was a Jew.

It is poo alright but Jesus was also born of a Jew and one just cannot be both son of God and Jew.

03-15-2010, 08:56 AM	#1
StarryNight Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: to the left, europe Posts: 5,348	Son of God, literally (when)? Muslims have told me that Paul took the idea of Jesus as the Son of God to the Greeks and sold it to them as a literal statement, wheras earlier interpretations coming from within the Jewish tradition has been that "Son of God" meant saint or blessed person, or something like that. As the Greeks had a family of Gods the idea was assimilated quite easily, and it spread from there via Byzantium to the West. True or poo?

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03-15-2010, 09:02 AM	#2
dog-on Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: The Netherlands Posts: 3,397	I would imagine that the Greeks were already quite aware of the term Son of God, as they worshiped quite a few of them.

03-15-2010, 10:43 AM	#4
funinspace Contributor Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: North West usa Posts: 10,245	How would the "Muslims" know? Paul is our first written source of this new sect, as it emerged. What sources do they use to argue this, maybe the Quran from 600 years later?

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