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Old 12-08-2003, 11:06 PM   #51
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sharon45
Hosea 3:4-5 and 14:2-3 talks about a time without sacrifices and then being replaced by prayer.

1 Kings 8:46-50 speaks of when the Jews are in exile and with no temple, that prayer is asked for atonement.


Both of these speak of a time of apostasy when Israel is in captivity as a sign of judgement. These were not authorized alternatives to the sacrificial system. The basis of atonement was always sacrifice.

Sacrifice was initiated (by God) immediately after the fall when God made coverings of animal skins. It continued throughout all the generations starting with Abel. Sacrifice did not start with Israel.

I am not attacking Judiasm here. My purpose is to show that your rabid anti-Christian arguments can be used equally against your theology.
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Old 12-08-2003, 11:13 PM   #52
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It may not be part of your interpretaiton of Judiasm, but they are clearly quotes from OT sources which are accepted by many Jews.
Sharon apparently seems to forget that Isaiah and the other books of the OT, besides the Torah were written 1000 years before Christianity by Jews.
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Old 12-09-2003, 06:20 AM   #53
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Originally posted by Opera Nut
I've posted a sermon here before from a Conservative rabbi at Congregation Beth Yeshurun on "why Jesus is not the Messiah" which enunciates the characteristics of the Messiah in the OT, none of which Jesus fulfilled.
Sidebar - If you can recall his name, was he Jack Segal?
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Old 12-09-2003, 08:23 AM   #54
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Cool Hey Soul!

That seems to be right. I think he's the senior or emeritus rabbi. That sermon's not on their website anymore.

How'd you know him?
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Old 12-09-2003, 08:39 AM   #55
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Originally posted by sharon45
the_cave, in Judaism the different sects are only separated by how much they each observe the law. Unlike the christian belief, there is only one Tanach and all the sects realize this. They all choose on their own how much of the law they wish to follow, Orthodox being the most on down to Reform.,
Yeah, but then what makes Christianity so different? If neither the Christians nor the Reform Jews (or the Conservative or Orthodox Jews, for that matter) are performing the supposedly required sacrifices anymore, how come Kigore so strenuously denounces Christianity, but not Judaism?
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Old 12-09-2003, 10:21 AM   #56
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Originally posted by Magus55
Sharon apparently seems to forget that Isaiah and the other books of the OT, besides the Torah were written 1000 years before Christianity by Jews.
There are groups within Judiasm that only accept parts of the OT as cannonical. I believe the Tanach, to which Sharon refers, is what we would call the Pentatuch, i.e., the 5 books of Moses.
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Old 12-09-2003, 10:54 AM   #57
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Originally posted by theophilus
It may not be part of your interpretaiton of Judiasm, but they are clearly quotes from OT sources which are accepted by many Jews.
The OT is not in any way a part of Judaism. Just because some Jews might accept it, that makes no real point. Jews are like any other group of people, as a single person, they can have an opinion, and they can be wrong. Judaism though is a belief made up of many accepted views, but in order to remain Judaism, it has to follow certain guidelines. Having single Jews or those outside the belief creating the guidelines is not in anyway a representation of Judaism.
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:08 AM   #58
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Originally posted by theophilus
I understand your rationalizations for your failure to comply with the clear demands of God's law. I'm asking where God ever authorized an alternate method besides animal sacrifices.

If you want to insert symbolism into the sacrificial system, then all your arguments against Jesus go out the window, since they are based on your literal interpretation of OT and what make you the arbiter of what is symbolic and what is literal?

The writings in the Tanach are only of a concern to Jews, unless you are Jewish yourself, your comments on the beliefs are meaningless. Judaism is a belief of Jews to be understood and debated only by Jews. Those from outside the religion are welcomed to try to understand and even in time, convert to Judaism, but to think an outsider to find fault in the belief is meaningless to Jews for the representive of Judaism, and will always just remain the person's personal opinions, nothing more.

This is an accepted part of Judaism:

Everything from all of the Jewish writings could be proven that they were not at all from history and from G-d, just written by men alone, and this would not in any way change the belief of Judaism.
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Old 12-09-2003, 11:42 AM   #59
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by theophilus
Quote:
Originally posted by sharon45
Hosea 3:4-5 and 14:2-3 talks about a time without sacrifices and then being replaced by prayer.

1 Kings 8:46-50 speaks of when the Jews are in exile and with no temple, that prayer is asked for atonement.


Both of these speak of a time of apostasy when Israel is in captivity as a sign of judgement. These were not authorized alternatives to the sacrificial system. The basis of atonement was always sacrifice.

Sacrifice was initiated (by God) immediately after the fall when God made coverings of animal skins. It continued throughout all the generations starting with Abel. Sacrifice did not start with Israel.

I am not attacking Judiasm here. My purpose is to show that your rabid anti-Christian arguments can be used equally against your theology.
With the quotes, they refer to anytime the Jews are without a Temple, its meaningless for why this was, that's beside the point, prayer is to replace the blood sacrifice.

I did not say sacrifices started with Israel.

And yes, not only are you attacking Judaism in your rash statements, but also all the other religions to follow it that used and abused its teachings. You can keep this up as long as you like, but if you are of any of these beliefs, its very self defeating.
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Old 12-09-2003, 12:13 PM   #60
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Originally posted by the_cave
Yeah, but then what makes Christianity so different? If neither the Christians nor the Reform Jews (or the Conservative or Orthodox Jews, for that matter) are performing the supposedly required sacrifices anymore, how come Kigore so strenuously denounces Christianity, but not Judaism?
I don't have to know why Kilgore does what he does, that is his business, but from what I've read, he does a very good job showing his points.

I can give my answers though about christianity and Judaism.

As I said, Jews are devided into different sects with only one Tanach.

Christians have many major sects, but hundreds of minor sects, while there are hundreds of versions of their bible.

Anyone can denounce christianity because its creation is very flawed, this is proven many times throughout the NT. If a christian tries to find fault within the OT, they completly derail their belief as well.

As I pointed out earlier, Judaism is really of a concern with Jews, the creation of christianity was from those that clearly did not understand Judaism whether they were considered orginally Jews or from those outside the faith.
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