apatura_iris

We know from the NT (let's just take it at face value for the moment prima facie) that the rabbis were convinced that Jesus was in league with Satan, that he derived his powers from Satan.

It has always puzzled me that no one has ever seriously considered their opinions (other than some anti-missionary Jewish literature). These rabbis are either dismissed by Christians as "killers of christ" for their accusations, or just... dismissed.

But if you look at Jesus' temptation by Satan, in the wilderness, he never clearly declines Satan's offer. He just offers Torah passages that might or might not mean "no." We assume it means no, because that's what we've always been taught, that Jesus defeated Satan in the wilderness, but the text does not clearly indicate that Jesus ever said "no."

Jesus' mission began only after his exchange with Satan, and, whilst Jesus supposedly turned down Satan's offer of earthly dominion, in Revelations, Jesus is referred to as none other than "The prince of the kings of the earth." So what's going on? Didn't Jesus turn down that job?

Jesus also identifies one of his own apostles as Satan (Mt 16:23), the one on whom he founds his church. Am I the first person in human history to read this literally?

Atheos

You're not the first person who's ever speculated that Jesus and Lucifer might be the same character. Jesus claims that he is the "bright and morning star" in Revelation 22:16, a symbol of Lucifer. This certainly raises an eyebrow or two.

However, regarding the temptation scenes I find your arguments specious at best. Although the passages lack an explicit "No thank you", the implication that Jesus refused to do the devil's bidding in each instance is very strong.

Secondly, the fact that the passages actually include a dialogue between Jesus and the devil seems to be a clue that we're dealing with two different characters here.

Any apologist would scoff at the idea that Peter was literally "Satan" in Matt 16:23. The most reasonable conclusion (if one accepts the idea that Satan exists) is that Satan had caused Peter to utter the words Jesus scorned and Jesus was putting Satan in his place even if his words were directed at Peter. In Luke 22:32 Jesus claims that he has been praying for Peter and hopes that when he is "converted" (maybe he's no longer Satan's lap dog) he'll strengthen his bretheren.

There are lots of solid reasons to suspect that the four "gospel" narratives are essentially fabrications that may have developed through oral tradition around an itenerant preacher/cult leader. I find them far more compelling than the arguments you've presented here.

Solo

The gospel stories can be read (, or perhaps should be read,) as symbolic travelogue of a soul visited by Spirit. Its intended audience, at the outset were people who had some personal experience with being possessed, but who had recovered some (or perhaps all) of their faculties, and were capable of reflection and orderly thought. The Jesus travelogues (or mystic sessions as in Gospel of Thomas) for them were transference therapy, the assignation of the in-dwelling Spirit to a psychic double named "Jesus", which "controlled" the Sprit's euphoric revelations followed by excruciating departure in acute psychosis.
The Spirit is by nature bi-polar (manic-depressive): one pole points to heavenly delights, of superior mastery and absolute fulfilment, the other to an unmitigated disaster, annihilation, eternal perdition. In the Judaic tradition, disease and depression are the work of Satan. The possession by a Spirit would have been also seen that way; exorcism would have been interpreted as battle of dark powers.
The hostility of the scribes and Pharisees to Jesus, and their insistence that his "powers" come from Satan, reflect the struggles of the "Spirited" in-crowd, their plight for acceptance and understanding. They believed they were (like Jesus) free of the association with the dark Majesty and yet they were being despised and condemned as his apprentices. (Mt 10:24 A student is not above his teacher, nor a servant above his master. It is enough for the student to be like his teacher, and the servant like his master. If the head of the house has been called Beelzebub, how much more the members of his household! So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.).
Jesus' struggle with Satan in the desert is almost a clinical description of the process of reducing the "magical" reality of mania. First, Jesus does not eat during his struggle with the devil - an important diagnostic clue. He resists the paradoxical impulses, or auto-suggestions of "powers" that describe an excited manic. He resists the offer of the kingdoms, or delusions of grandeur. He resists the "levitational illusion" to fly off a cliff (many manic patients have merrily jumped out of windows and off the roofs of psychiatric hospitals, and a few lived to explain their "experiments" with weightlessness). He refuses the "magical feeding" by bread made out of stones. This struggle parallel's the struggles of Mohammed (who believed himself devil-possessed after his encounter with Gabriel), Buddha (who fought off the evil Mara) and even Paul who attests to Satan's "thorn in the flesh" to keep him closer to reality.

It is interesting though that while some of the Jesus movements absolutely rejected "miracles" (as e.g. the Thomasians) and the Pauline tradition simply refused to assign to them reality except as somewhat inferior expression of Pneuma, the gospel fare of Jesus as miracle worker became firmly embedded in the Christian mainstream. Among the gospellers, Luke hints (4:13, 22:28), that the temptation by the devil was a continuous affair.

Jiri

Nazaroo

Obviously we only have Jesus' word for what actually happened (no witnesses).

Perhaps Satan's version of the exchange would also be interesting.

Then again, he might be bitter about it, and prone to selective memory.

The fact that Jesus even got a personal appointment speaks volumes, and raises the spectre of association.

Imagine if you or I were given an audience with a top Mafia don, and then a week later, were picked up for an 'interview' with the FBI.

Could anyone really trust us again after that? What would the mafia say? "So what happened? Cause if I don't believe you we're taking a ride in the trunk of Bruno's car.

And later, how about the cops? "So is the sting operation a go ahead? Cause if anything goes wrong, we're putting a bullet in your back."

Puts a whole new spin on Jesus' death. Obviously many conflicting interested parties had gotten involved.

apatura_iris

Atheos--I'm not suggesting that Jesus was Satan, just that he might have been in league with him, and gained his powers from him. And yes, there is the theory that the gospels are fabrication, which is why I asked that they be accepted prima facie solely for the sake of this discussion. And while my interpretation of Jesus' Torah citations may be specious, you yourself admit that he never said "No."

Overall I am more puzzled as to why the rabbis are summarily dismissed. There they are, plainly stating that Jesus derives his powers from a demonic force. Yet no one seems to consider this seriously (apart from a handful of Jewish anti-missionary authors, as I mentioned).

Yes, of course the apologists would scoff over the notion that Jesus was literally calling his disciple Satan. But, that doesn't change the fact that he did exactly that-- called one of his disciples by name as Satan.

Larsguy47

Jesus is not lin league with Satan. They were once married. But when Satan rebelled in the Garden of Eden God told Chirst, "I will put enmity between you and the woman [Satan, his wife], and between your seed and her seed." And to Satan he said, "He [Jesus] bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel."

So that drama has played out over these nearly 6000 years until Satan got kicked out of Heaven recently (45 years after the 69th Jewish jubilee year).

Once Christ seals all his saints into the kingdom though, the present world will end, Satan will be abyssed for 1000 years and Christ will rule with the sealed saints, serving as king-priests on the earth with the survivors of "Armageddon." They will live and learn God's complete ways under this rule of 1000 years. Then Satan will be let loose, again to temp this world of men who know God under Christ's direct rule. Satan will cause a rebellion of "Gog of Magog" (Nazism) once again, and those joining Satan along with Satan will finally be destroyed in the "lake of fire" which means the second and final death. Then that will be the end of Satan. Everybody else will be judged during Judgment Day, all those who had died will come back. And those who are righteous will get eternal life, those who are found unrighteous will join Satan in the lake of fire and eternal death. Then a new Creative Week will begin and a world without Satan will live happily ever after.

LG47

RED DAVE

Right. You know all this for a fact.

Take two reality pills and don't post until morning.

RED DAVE

Atheos

Dang! Jesus and Satan were once married! Wonder if they shot vids of their honeymoon. I can imagine Jesus with a riding crop, wearing a tight leather thong with Satan bent over the bed tied up, saying "Haven't we been a naughty little devil..."

Seriously, that's about the biggest metaphorical stretch I've ever seen WRT the Garden of Eden myth. And I've seen some whoppers. How does one explain that God was allegedly talking to the serpent when he said,
... with your interpretation that "enmity between thee and the woman" was said to Jesus and "it shall bruise thy head..." was said to Satan. This makes absolutely no sense even with the loosest of interpretive license.

The "Garden of Eden" story is an origin myth that got included in the Judaic tradition to offer explanations for the hard life people have to live just to survive, why the snake has no legs, why women are afraid of snakes, why women experience agonizing pain in childbirth, why people get old and die, and why there's a big flaming sword with cherubims blocking the way back to the garden of Eden.

Larsguy47

It's in the Bible.

LG47

sharrock

Ahhhhh, sweet.....